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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK I went out looking for informations on the 4C engine specs and anathomy in order to learn what is possible to improve, just to have a starting point. As all other Production turbo cars there should be room for power increase by changing to bigger turbo and intercooler. So is there any place/room for this in the 4C body? In other big power projects I have seen on front engine cars the whole front is covered by the intercooler. In a mid engine there is limited space for this! Also changing the electronics program could be a problem if the tuner does not have the Access codes. To do a 4C you certainly would need plenty of experience and skill! Luckily I came over a site which discusses 4C tuning with input from Mr. Pogea(LE046/2014) involved in 4C tuning. He shares lot of his experiences with the 4C tuning which is very interesting for the technical minded! Hope you find it interesting!

So 4C tech data, engine photos and tuning link!

4C tuning link.

Pogea racing 4C - Alfa Romeo 4C Forums

https://www.facebook.com/pogea.racing?fref=photo
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
And the technical data = starting point.

Feel free to add other relevant data! The anathomy of the intercooler routing and size, cooler system and turbo spec could well be added!

Also learned that the exhaust system does not have any muffler/silencers. Only silencing is from the turbocharger and the catalyst! There will be some rumbling!

Here a quote from Pogea Racing with regards to their plans on a 415 hp Version:

"The addition of these parts makes sense, as Pogea Racing plans to significantly boost the power of the four-cylinder engine from 240 horsepower to around 415 hp and 450 Nm (332 lb-ft) of torque.

"To achieve this, various engine modifications are necessary: new turbochargers, tubular exhaust manifold and an exhaust system with valve control will replace the serial components. In addition, we optimise the fuel supply and the cooling system," explains company founder Eduard Pogea. "

Sounds like regular turbo engine tuning, except the challenges of limited space in the car!

GK.
 

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Well, Gabor, if you found that site, you certainly understand the complexities (difficulties and dangers, courtesy of Alfa Romeo and its suppliers) of 4C tuning better now! I'm afraid that I cannot add to your knowledge base at this time (since the car hasn't really arrived here yet), but look forward to seeing what information gets added here.

Edit: maybe some of this video will be helpful/relevant. If nothing else, it's interesting!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dfbfvx3hb5Q
 

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gabor k ...with due respect to the tuner you mentioned Alfa Romeo spent I am guessing lots of money on the engineering of the 4C engine with the full force of Fiat group engineering behind them testing and retesting for performance and longevity. So for a relatively small independent tuner to simply dump the existing turbos and optimise the fuel supply and cooling system....in other words to try to better the standard spec for me personally gives me hesitation no matter their experience with other brands including fiat. There are always compromises involved when tuners try to better the standard setup and I am guessing Alfa built that engine with relative longevity in mind using the full performance daily and stand by that with warranty. If new bespoke "major" parts are used who knows how the integrated system will perform and last, notwithstanding the case that changing the standard setup will invalidate any Alfa support in my opinion.
Surely since the 4C is turbocharged simply upping the boost and reconfiguring the engine map would produce the desired tuning improvement, something I am guessing is what Alfa have done with the forthcoming 4c cloverleaf with 300hp.

Furthermore for me the reviews I have read of the 4c stated on more than one occasion still some turbo lag at low revs. I would try to find a way to optimise the existing spec with something to give better "response" of the turbo at all speeds before dumping the existing setup and trying something new. Better response for me means better control and thus in my opinion more satisfying drive and faster car. I would try further to work on less friction in internals and to simplify as much of the electronics as possible as that way there is less to go wrong.
Lastly fitting where possible lighter components as much as possible as less weight means going faster everywhere not just in a straight line...Alfa should have allowed a manual shift as for me that would have been lighter and also personally more preferable.

One last point not related....from the photos the engine has belt driven cams ...for me chains of sufficient quality would be better for longevity and look cooler
 

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Discussion Starter #5
As we know this car is at its first stage of development, only time will show which way the development will go! Thats depending on what people expect from such a car!

What is offered now as aftermaket tuning is very little so we have to wait and see! Seems several of the Alfa tuners are working with both engine and body tuning. At the moment Pogea racing seems to be the first to offer something, like program tuning of the ECU. They found that piggyback systems did not work with this latest ECU from Bosch, so they had to crack the codes in order to reprogram the Bosch ECU.

Going further, introducing bigger turbo for even more power will result more lag of course, so we will have to wait how well they solve this problem.
On the other hand new type of Electric turbocharger is developed. Electric motor driving a compressor up to 70.000rpm. Eliminating lag! A car with electric turbocharger is on its way from another brand. If this is successful surely other brands will use this type of turbo also!

Back to Alfa tuners for the 4C

Novitec, which is a known Alfa tuner in Germany, has not announced anything yet, but they must be working as a styled 4C Spider is Associated to them

Squadra Tuning in Holland, specialist of Alfa chip tuning, seem also to be working on the 4C but their 4C page is from 2013 and needs update!

4C, Alfa 4C - Squadra Tuning

Gazella Racing, UK, offer a set of C&B cams for the 4C. Nice to know, but usually when installing different cams in such an engine there should be reprogramming of the ECU. That would be more difficult at present stage.

Colombo Bariani Performance Cams (Pair) (Fast Road Profile Alfa Romeo 4C)

Novitec 4C Spider styling Project:

GK.
 

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interesting about the electric turbocharger...who is developing it and is it on a standalone basis or as part of a hybrid package?
I see top end hybrid sports cars using hybrid petrol electric drivetrain to aid response of the turbo at the lower end and throughout the rev range so response is linear like the mclaren p1 as well as the bmw i8 for emissions/fuel economy reasons as well as performance but a hybrid system would also add weight.

About the tuners am curious to see what they develop and the different approaches if any to tuning the engine; I can imagine a tuner stuffing a v6 longitudinally in the rear instead of the 4cyl turbo to make it a 6c.
I wonder if any will invest in an autoclave for not only the 4c but other cars so that more carbon fibre parts can be substituted for lightness which would be advantageous for track cars; I believe the 4c concept had completely carbon fibre bodywork
 

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Discussion Starter #7

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Yes, it is Pogea who plans to make CF body panels.
Not sure how much weight savings there would be, but he will have his reasons.
 

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I think all this talk of changing the turbo, manifolding, cooling system etc. is a classic example of getting the cart before the horse. It makes a lot more sense to start with the less expensive, and less intrusive upgrades that can be done without causing warranty issues.

Besides, it's very likely that meaningful gains can be had on this car without a lot of hardware changes. Various US tuners have already gotten pretty large gains on US spec Fiat/Alfa engines with a tune and an intake. In my case using my tune and intake we have the 1368 cc Abarth engine up to 220+whp, up from about 160! I have some customers getting nearly 240whp with further mods. Some other vendors here like Road Race Motorsports are in the same ball park, although they use some different components.

In short, I think in the US, we will see pretty solid gains from this car with relatively mild mods, no need to change out the turbo just yet. I know at HPSI we are working on a tune using Unichip, as well as other options.
 

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Valeo in cooperation with Audi has developed the Electric turbocharger and will market a car with that to see how good it is. We will see how successful this concept is!
I think that can work pretty well. Although it seems to me it's an electric supercharger. It's not an electric turbocharger because it doesn't have a turbine, that's the part the electric motor replaces. It's really an electrically driven centrifugal supercharger.

These are not new, but seeing a major manufacturer talk about using one is new. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I think that can work pretty well. Although it seems to me it's an electric supercharger. It's not an electric turbocharger because it doesn't have a turbine, that's the part the electric motor replaces. It's really an electrically driven centrifugal supercharger.

These are not new, but seeing a major manufacturer talk about using one is new. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
Agree that Electric Supercharger would be more correct for this product, therefore I at first thought that an Electric turbocharger would be a turbocharger with electrical motor connected to a turbocharger. That would be ideal to have an lectric initial phase and then let the exhaust take over when the pressure rised. But not quite so!

GK.
 

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Greg Gordon...glad you agree with what I stated previous to your messages about not needing to change the turbos or major parts of the 4C yet and that merely upping the turbo boost and retuning the engine programs would get a good result. The upcoming alfa 4c cloverleaf i would imagine would do just that.
 

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Greg Gordon...glad you agree with what I stated previous to your messages about not needing to change the turbos or major parts of the 4C yet and that merely upping the turbo boost and retuning the engine programs would get a good result. The upcoming alfa 4c cloverleaf i would imagine would do just that.
Is this "cloverleaf" edition any more real than any of the other promises that Alfa has made?

Not wanting to rain on your parade, but I suspect that 4C coupe production will be displaced by the spider, and then fade to black once its purpose has been fulfilled (that being hype for the return of Alfa to N. America). If it were to continue, it will be at a price point more fitting its technology, looks, and performance. And then competition will probably kill the car except for a few hard-core fans who will always lust after such a novelty.

I hope you are right about such a car. And I know that there were reports that Alfa would be improving the 4C continually - but I really question whether those quotes were vetted by accounting. Every product manager, every engineer, wants their baby to live on and prosper. Only time will tell, I guess. Otherwise, tuning and modifications will be the only way to go, in terms of increased output and performance. So, back to that discussion…
 

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4C Canada ...reports say there will be cloverleaf versions of every future alfa car I believe. Regarding specifically the 4c cloverleaf specs released by auto mags say the engine will be upgraded to 300hp and also the brakes will be upgraded (the brakes are phenomenal already according to tests).
However there already exists as a pace car at certain european events a version with 300hp ....Primeur: Alfa Romeo test al met 300 pk sterke 4C! | CorsaItalia Magazine

It is in dutch but you can translate, so it seems alfa already are testing a 4c with 300hp
 

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Thanks. I've seen the article before, but have never translated it.

And I agree, the reviews tout the brakes as stellar, yet the one interview with Fiat R&D chief Harald Wester said that the brakes are the first thing that need upgrading if the power is to be increased. That interview is probably the genesis of all the various reports of a more powerful production model. That is as "real" as the 4C is in most of the world right now. I guess we'll see.
 
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