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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Thanks, but no thanks...

I've been an Alfa guy for 30+ years. I have presented a LOT of historical information that is not generally available. I have had run-ins with any number of people involved with the Alfa Club and even some people who post here.

I used to write all the historic articles for the LA chapter newsletter. Both Gary Patitz, who was editor, and I decided to no longer do all the work, simply because no one seemed to even care that a chapter newsletter was being done. The finances of the club were pretty much being controlled by one person, and his total agenda was the time trials program.

It is not, nor has it ever been my desire to attack people over their love for Alfas, but many people involved with them are so out of touch with reality, that what they say is totally irrelevent. There are probibly no more than 10,000 Alfas that run in the entire US. There are only 3000 members or so in the national club. For the average American (and even the average car guy) Alfa is very much WHO CARES?

If Alfa comes back to the US, they WILL have to care about these people, and not cater to the tastes and whims of the "Alfisti"; especially the 10 people who actually might pay $40,000 for a 156 GTA.

By attempting to present a case for Hyundai, what they make, and what they price the cars at, I have encontered the "wrath" of some who do not believe I'm a REAL Alfa guy. Their cars might not be great, but they ARE selling cars here. In 2002, they sold almost double what they sold in 2001. They must be doing SOMETHING right..OBVIOUSLY Alfa never did, as their best year EVER was 8500 cars.

Some of you "don't want to hear it"...OK, fine...

Your'e attitude has made me decide to no longer post anything here, as happened with the Alfa Digest.

I'll just continue to correspond with the people I believe are the real Alfistis...people like Tito Anselmi, Peter Marshall, Cesar Sorkin, Dave Mericle, Eric Harrison, Joost Gomples, Simon Moore, etc, etc, etc....

The people here, quite frankly, are pretty much a waste of time....
 

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Good riddance.

As a new comer to this forum I thought you completely out of line. Your self-righteousness and indignation are not excuses for hijacking threads within the forum to suit your own purposes. So what if you know a lot about Alfa's, your social skills suck...and that's what a dialog is about...having the skills to recognize when to speak and when to shut the hell up. Every view has its forum you chose the wrong one to voice your opinion about issues not directly related to the subject at hand. Shame on you. In addition wrapping yourself in the cloak of a high priest of know-it-all by comparing yourself to another great Alfisti that also happened to work in the same automotive arena as your self is cheap, and debases the memory of someone obviously greater than yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Oh, really?

Pat Braden was a close personal friend, and I have nothing but good things to say about him. Perhaps he is better known amongst US "Alfistis" than I am, but I am considerably better known amongst the people that run the Alfa model registers and historians of the marque, such as Simon Moore, Peter Marshall, Tony Adriaensens, Cesar Siorkin, etc.

People like Dave Mericle Jr (who has forgotten more technically about Alfas than most here will ever know), Gary Patitz (who started a couple of Alfa club chapters), and any number of others no longer will have anything to do with you "so called" Alfa people because of the politics of the club and the egos and agendas of those who run it...people like Phylis Gaylard, John Hertzman, and on and on...

The problem with most Alfa people is that they see having one is some sort of status symbol and they are part of a "clique" of people who think they are somehow superior. They don't seem to realize that the vast majority of the population see their cars as pieces of crap, and will NEVER buy an Alfa.

I'm one of the people that has been trying to change that by presenting realistic attitudes about the cars and they really are, and their history.

The bottom line is that the people at ALFA andf FIAT know and respect people like Dave Mericle and ME....and could give a crap less what people that post here think and their overinflated ideas of what their 15 year old cars are worth or their importance...
 

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Hmm, you left the A-D a couple of years ago in the same manner... Maybe you are the one who has the problem. I noticed that you don't mention Tenney or Don Black... Oops, those are the guys who were there with Alfa and corrected your errors for which you left the A-D in a similar huff. We haven't missed you there either...
 

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dretceterini,
May I ask you to please reconsider your decision to leave the BB. Personally, it is quite refreshing to read your practical viewpoints. It shows years of experience about the way things really are. In fact, when my wife needs a new car in a couple of years, we will consider getting a Hyundai BECAUSE of the warranty. Does that make me not a true Alfista? Only in the minds of the myopic who think that even looking at another car is an act of treason. I don't think your an Alfista, I KNOW you are!
It is because of people like you, willing to share your years of experience and knowledge for free, is what makes forums such as this worthwhile. IMO, it is those who try to force their opinions on someone, or claim superior backgrounds or simply post 'good riddance' are the ones who could benefit the most from you staying.

Back to work. BBL.

Best regards,
 

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I don't think Alfa guys think they have status symbol's or are somehow superior. We love the car's we drive, they make us happy. It's an addiction, a disease or whatever you would like to call it. Alfa Romeo is a hobby. You make a lot of assumptions, and I personally think you're off on quiet a few.

I understand you're views and you're explanations, but you also have to try and put yourself in others shoes. You'd rather drive a Hyundai, because it's a priced great, reliable, and warranty fantasic car. What seem's to be said, is you like cheap priced car's to get you from a to b. Why don't you buy a kia? Those are 6k new.

My assumption of the Dr. I think you think fast, and speak faster. Also this politcal thing has gotten to you. Relax man, enjoy the Alfa ride. You obviously like Alfa's if you're on this board. You might think there over priced, but I think most are priced at very decent prices, the only ones that are usually over priced are the rust buckets (my opinion). Seem's to me, you've been to deeply involved with the whole Alfa Community (not that it's a bad thing), you seem burnt out. Let's throw that political **** in the thrash, get a Alfa you like, and enjoy it. Try and ignore the society you don't like, and be apart of the one you like.

I have run into very nice Alfa owners, and I've run into Alfa owner's that have a ego, the size of cathedrals. But every human is different.

I want you to stay. I love your post's, there great. You're entitled to you're own opinion like you've said. If you post something I don't like I might move it or delete it. But I tend to like every one of your posts.

The Sheriff


Edit:

By the way, I could not buy a Hyundai, because of the old excel, what a piece of crap. But I do like BMW's. I wish I could own a M3 or a 760, sorry TheGeneral. And I like a whole lot of other car's other then Alfa's.

Oh, and what Papajam said.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
My last word on the subject....

I consider Tenny in the same vein as Hertzman (basically, an idiot...but thats just MY opinion).. Don Black is a personal friend for a LONG time. He and Dave Mericle know a LOT more technically about Alfas than I will ever know.

MY area of expertise is history...and Dave left being involved with Alfa people and the club for pretty much the same reasons for which I now am saying goodbye...to much BS from idiots that THINK they know something but don't,

Nor do these "Alfisti" know how and who to get the REAL answers from INSIDE Alfa/Fiat...

Don will NEVER come back to FIAT/Alfa, because the US bosses him like **** just before he left...

He is still good friends with the IMPORTANT people still left at FIAT and Alfa in Italy.

PS: Kia's aren't $6 new any more! They are virtually the same price (check their web site) as the comparable Hyundai...and Hyundai now owns controlling interest in Kia!!! Mitsubishi owns part of Hyundai, and Dailmer-Benz owns part Of Mitsubishi!
 

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the last word

Bet you can't let someone else have the last word after all.

It really is too bad that Alfa/Fiat management let you slip by and as a result you ended up at Hyundai. To think that you could have singlehandedly saved Alfa from it's current state of uncertainty! Just think of the possibilities!

But then again, maybe they realized that if they hired you, you'd spend all day bull****ting online instead of working.....
 

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The last word? Hahahaha!

Just a minor point of order: I don't think you can HAVE "the last word" on a 'BB' like this!

Dr. Etceterini - As I have already written elsewhere, I am a big fan of the vast knowledge of the 'classic' Alfas you have shared here. Thanks.

We Alfisti are all 'characters', and we all should try and exercise tolerance. That is a very great virtue, and one that too few humans possess in any real quantity. Well, that's my sort of "Zen, left-leaning, Canadian-in-the-US" unrequested opinion anyway.

I like all kinds of cars...But I 'love' Alfas! I don't have much money, I don't drive them for 'status' and I don't really like the folks who do. I like Alfas because they have 'soul' and also for the exact reason that there were never many sold here. I don't care what the 'non-Alfisti' think of my cars, but actually...I have created many new 'Alfisti' by talking to them about Alfas and by taking them for rides, or letting them drive my cars. I really don't know anyone who doesn't like Alfas, but I have met people who hate Chevy, Ford, BMW, etc. Most 'gear-heads' of almost all persuasions have respect and admiration for Alfa Romeos.

In any event, I truly hope that you don't leave us. In fact, I wish you would come back to the Alfa-Digest and re-join AROC or ARA! All I am asking you to do is to avoid 'advertising' for Hyundai and saying negative things about the newer Alfas in a thread developed by someone who is trying to sell their car.

Cheers,
 

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Come On DR

OK....here goes my bull****.

Conflict.....conflict....CONFLICT. The key is to first understand what is being said, digest it, and respond. So with that said here is what I hear in regards to quotes from dretceterini (and correct me if I am wrong):

1. I've been an Alfa guy for 30+ years. I have presented a LOT of historical information.......I agree that you seem to have a lot to offer to the board and you are knowledgeable.

2. I used to write all the historic articles for the LA chapter newsletter.......That is great. Why not create a thread on Alfabb and write one monthly for all of us? Its free for you and would be interesting to read about vintage cars.....and admittedly few of us know much about anything prior to 1960.

3. It is not, nor has it ever been my desire to attack people over their love for Alfas, but many people involved with them are so out of touch with reality, that what they say is totally irrelevent.......AND THIS QUOTE GOES WITH IT......and could give a crap less what people that post here think and their overinflated ideas of what their 15 year old cars are worth or their importance......................OK, you don't want to attack Alfa owners, but you just did. Read your sentences here. I hear you calling the majority of Alfa owners out of touch w/ reality and irrelevant and don't give a crap about anyone's opinion other than yours. Sounds like an attack to me, how about you?

4. The problem with most Alfa people is that they see having one as some sort of status symbol and they are part of a "clique" of people who think they are somehow superior. They don't seem to realize that the vast majority of the population see their cars as pieces of crap, and will NEVER buy an Alfa........AND THIS QUOTE GOES WITH IT......The bottom line is that the people at ALFA and FIAT know and respect people like Dave Mericle and ME....AND THIS QUOTE........Perhaps he is better known amongst US "Alfistis" than I am, but I am considerably better known amongst the people that run the Alfa model registers and historians of the marque, such as Simon Moore, Peter Marshall, Tony Adriaensens, Cesar Siorkin, etc.......................OK, I hear you saying that Alfa Owners consider themselves as superior and part of an elite fraternity even though you say others see them as jokes to the world.....but then I hear you utilize Alfa as your status symbol by saying so and so knows me.....Alfa considers me and so and so.

5. MY area of expertise is history...and Dave left being involved with Alfa people and the club for pretty much the same reasons for which I now am saying goodbye...to much BS from idiots that THINK they know something but don't, Nor do these "Alfisti" know how and who to get the REAL answers from INSIDE Alfa/Fiat.......Yes your expertise is history, but also not modern Alfas. Again you attack the masses calling them idiots. I would not underestimate an Alfa owner on finding or sourcing anything needed from Alfa.

Well enough of the BS quotes, but I wanted to point a few things out to the DR.

First you are not stupid, but tactless. You are like a bull in a china shop. Just a dash of tact will improve your enjoyment of the board. I would not suggest posting how someones car is overpriced on their thread where they are selling the car. You seem to know little to no knowledge on the 80's and 90's Alfas in any case. So be a gent, and bite your tongue if you disagree with the price or can't say something nice. That not only goes on the board, but it goes in life.

Second, I would not be calling people by their names idiots and Alfa owners irrelevant on a public posting board. Just does not make good sense. Your need to attack Alfa owners is misplaced. I think you need to vent your frustrations to the specific people involved and not roll in the entire Alfa community in your disgust. And think how you lump the entire Alfa community in the terms irrelevant, idiots, pieces of crap, etc. If you ASSUME it makes an *** out of U and ME. Assuming the US sees Alfas as crap, assuming that Alfa owners opinions are irrelevant to yours, assuming that Alfa owners see their cars as status symbols, asses out of you and me........It truely seems that in your posts here and elsewhere you did attack the Alfa community and really there is no justification.

Don't hang your hat on Alfa, Hyundai, or anything else. You accuse Alfa owners of feeling superior, but really you are the one who trys to utilize Alfa, Hyundai, member of NADA board, who you know, etc to give yourself a sense of worth. It seems that if you have to do this, you need to evaluate your self worth. Its not about Alfa or any other labels, but only you can answer what your self worth is about. Respect in any case is not driven by labels or who you know, but by your projection of your attitude and respect for others.

Saying you are going to leave over spilled milk....its childish. And it seems you have a history of this. I think you have created your bed, but you do not want to clean up the mess you created. You rather go running back home crying I hate you.....I don't like you....I quit.....etc. And again its childish....pouting.....stomping out of a room.......slamming the door. Hell, its kind of sounds like my 9 year old son when he is throwing a fit. No one asked you to leave. I actually enjoyed your posts, even though they were misplaced and tactless at times considering where you did post them. I have read threads over at Alfa Digest and yes they are far more restricted and does not compare to the Alfabb. I.E. Alfa Digest was threatening to cut off threads about Caribou with people slamming them. Seemed like ED and Caribou have a stake in the Digest and the Digest was protecting them. I really enjoy this forum as people say what they think and give great advice. People here are knowledgeable and worth listening to.

When I consider people who I respect and take advice from, I consider how they treat and respect others. Someone like PapaJam is a great example. Here he is asking you to stay on even with the mistakes you have made. Jim took the time to respond to my numerous questions about carburetion. Jim is great source of knowledge and worth my respect and yours. Roadtrip is another. He took the time to send me several large files that aided me in the repair of my car. John is worth my respect and yours. And all the other owners on this board sharing knowledge, advice, and their time. And lets not forget the people who took the time to create this board. So I think you do owe the board an apology for referring to them as idiots and irrelevant.

Personally I think you have a lack of self worth and tactofobia....scared of being tactful. I would suggest a daily dose of humility and looking daily in the mirror repeating, "I am good enough, I am nice enough, and dammit...Alfabb likes me."

Seriously don't leave over the conflict (that you did create), get some tact, apologize, and start a monthly historic feature. In any case......stay or leave its up to you. I suggest you earn the respect you are looking for and continue sharing the knowledge you have.

Best Regards,
John M
 

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Dretceterini:

****, where have I been, I missed the drama!!!

My .02 - I agree with much above. I would welcome your continuing to share your knowledge, it would be more pleasant if you were more tactful in sharing your opinions.

I think that some of us make a bit too much of what goes on in these boards. ITS THE INTERNET, lighten up.

The internet is where 50 year old bald guys go into chat rooms and describe themselves as 17 yr old high school girls. It really shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Here's a picture of me:




:)

John
 

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Paradiso:

That is the funniest post I have seen in awhile!

John M
 

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WAY too much drama over a car discussion board! Its supposed to be fun.
People take this **** way too seriously. I wonder if I'll renew my AROC-USA membership. It seems to be run by a bunch of dretceterinis.
 

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Great reply John. Looks like we both took the same course in Managing for Productivity. Nice of you to take so much time to give a performance reveiw to Mr. Malcontent.
I joined AROSC about 6 years ago and have never been associated with a more considerate, helpful, down to earth group of people. I drove my street stock 65 Giulia ti this weekend at Buttonwillow and, still being new at Time Trialing, I spent most of Sat. missing the line, scraping off speed in the corners and trying to remember what our VOLUNTEER INSTRUCTORS had been taking their time to teach me in school. After each of my runs different people would take the time to complement my effort, discuss what I was doing and pass on some advise. Between Sat and Sun test runs, I dropped 5 seconds and during my timed runs another 6. I'm still pumped. Doesn't sound like a bad group of people to me.
We didn't wind up with over 15% of our nearly 400 club members not being Alfa owners because of a need to feel superior, but because they love their cars and the opportunity to drive them at the level at which they were meant to perform (which the club provides through its 8 road track venues per year) or to share the beauty and history of their cars at the various concours venues that we have. It seems that every Alfa owner I know has some degree of hands on experience with his vehicle, which means study and historical research and they all share freely. Does this mean we don't make mistakes - sure we do. Even Dave Mericle who was in the shop about 5 years ago when we were finishing the engine comartment assembly on my Spider Veloce and offered advice on where the air filter mount should be placed can make a mistake. We listened to his opinion and when he left mounted it correctly. He was in the shop for a few minutes, was preoccupied with the purpose of his visit and just didn't notice that it was a Veloce not a Normale. He would still be on the top of my list vis a vis info for Giuliettas and Giulias.
Just a brief opinion on the 8000+ cars Alfa sold when they were in this market vs what they could do now if Fiat and GM could think outside their nine dots. How good a marketing man do you have to be to capitilize on a Marque that in the past two years has a) won a European "Car of the Year" award, b) won its production class race competition 2 years in a row (taking both 1st & 2nd in the last one) against BMW, c) is being forced by demand to produce its award winning prototype and last but not least were the prominent chase cars in no other place than the Tour de France
 

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Hey John P:

You know its all about making friends and having something in common to share. I could care less what AROC does nationally or who runs it. What matters to me is the people in my local chapter. I look forward to getting together every once in awhile to share stories and BS around the cars and have some dinner. They all seem to be pretty nice people. Hence, I will try to stay involved and continue to search out others w/ Alfas.

Best Regards,
John M
 

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Hey Norman:

Agree with you 100%. I have made friends all over the country that I can turn to and ask for advice. From Jim Steck to Paul Spruell to great owners found on this board and others. Drop an email, drop a request and Ba Ba Bing....you have the answer. People in this community are giving of their time and knowledge, and I would rather be no where else when it comes to distractions from the daily grind.

John M
 
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