Sounds like a faulty CSI. What was Greg's report after service at OK Injectors?
testing a CSI
My car has had a few starting issues over the years that I have just lived with but have now decided to get after. Car runs fine but is hard to start either cold or hot. I know this is two different issues but for now I'd like to start with the cold start, which used to require me barely turning the key...
Known Issue: CSI does not squirt fuel when starting car cold (verified with CSI out of plenum and trying to spray fuel into cup).
Recent Background:
CSI serviced (along with all other injectors)within last two weeks at OK Injectors. Hard cold start issue was present prior to cleaning.
Other testing performed:
1. with injector removed from plenum, I connected 12vdc across the CSI and got audible click but no fuel delivery when when I cranked the car.
2. Connected cyl #4 injector harness to CSI and cranked car...no spray. Car started even with cyl 4 injector disconnected (good Alfa!)
3. Measured voltage at CSI on harness side while cranking with CSI disconnected. ~11Vdc
As a sidebar, I tired to power the CSI out of the car with a 9v battery but was unable to hear it open. I figured the battery might provide enough power and was somewhat surprised it didn't work.
Even though the CSI clicks and was serviced, I think I have a bad CSI. Thing is, same issue was present prior to servicing injectors.
Am I missing something?
SENSOR READINGS:
All appear within spec.
Ambient air temp at time of readings: 70F
Air sensor at intake (across pins 1-5): 2.57K
CTS: engine hot: 319 ohm cold:1.24K
Ignition Temp sensor: engine hot 308 ohm; cold 1.30Kohm
TTS:
between G and W: hot: 70 ohm; cold 35 ohm
between G and gnd: hot 71 ohm; cold 35 ohm
between W and gnd: hot 140 ohm; cold 0 ohm
Out of Spec readings:
TPS:
Idle: 2-18 0 ohm; 3-18 open circuit
WOT: 2-18; open circuit; 3-18 open circuit
WOT reading is out of spec but should not be an issue for staring but will not address at this time.
AAV:
Freezer: Does not open more than 25%. Could not improve much even after cleaning.
Oven: Closes completely.
Will not address at the moment as it has not bearing on the CSI
Known Issue: CSI does not squirt fuel when starting car cold (verified with CSI out of plenum and trying to spray fuel into cup).
Recent Background:
CSI serviced (along with all other injectors)within last two weeks at OK Injectors. Hard cold start issue was present prior to cleaning.
Other testing performed:
1. with injector removed from plenum, I connected 12vdc across the CSI and got audible click but no fuel delivery when when I cranked the car.
2. Connected cyl #4 injector harness to CSI and cranked car...no spray. Car started even with cyl 4 injector disconnected (good Alfa!)
3. Measured voltage at CSI on harness side while cranking with CSI disconnected. ~11Vdc
As a sidebar, I tired to power the CSI out of the car with a 9v battery but was unable to hear it open. I figured the battery might provide enough power and was somewhat surprised it didn't work.
Even though the CSI clicks and was serviced, I think I have a bad CSI. Thing is, same issue was present prior to servicing injectors.
Am I missing something?
SENSOR READINGS:
All appear within spec.
Ambient air temp at time of readings: 70F
Air sensor at intake (across pins 1-5): 2.57K
CTS: engine hot: 319 ohm cold:1.24K
Ignition Temp sensor: engine hot 308 ohm; cold 1.30Kohm
TTS:
between G and W: hot: 70 ohm; cold 35 ohm
between G and gnd: hot 71 ohm; cold 35 ohm
between W and gnd: hot 140 ohm; cold 0 ohm
Out of Spec readings:
TPS:
Idle: 2-18 0 ohm; 3-18 open circuit
WOT: 2-18; open circuit; 3-18 open circuit
WOT reading is out of spec but should not be an issue for staring but will not address at this time.
AAV:
Freezer: Does not open more than 25%. Could not improve much even after cleaning.
Oven: Closes completely.
Will not address at the moment as it has not bearing on the CSI
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
No data on sheet for the csi buy I talked to Misty prior to the injectors being returned and she mentioned all were functioning correctly.
Thing is, the car was getting hard to start when cold prior to my shipping the injectors off.
I need to pull an injector off a junker to have as a test asset.
Thing is, the car was getting hard to start when cold prior to my shipping the injectors off.
I need to pull an injector off a junker to have as a test asset.
The only unknown is - what was the fuel pressure when you did the testing? If fuel pressure is low the injectors won't spray. There should be adequate fuel pressure since the car will run (and you said it started with the #4 injector's connector on the CSI).
Anyway before condemning the CSI I'd want to know if fuel pressure is correct.
Anyway before condemning the CSI I'd want to know if fuel pressure is correct.
My car does have its original fuel pressure regulator. I don't currently have a fuel pressure gauge but I'm thinking of making one to have on hand.
cut to the chase and put a light on each of the CSI terminals when I had my son crank the starter....one light light, one did not.
Verdict is in, I need a CSI.
Verdict is in, I need a CSI.
Anybody bought a CSI from Autozone? They list an item for my spider at $41.95! Much cheaper than other sites, not to mention used ones on e_bay.
I've been running an Autozone Fuel pump on my spider for almost 4 years without an issue....think I'll have to give this one a try as well.
I've been running an Autozone Fuel pump on my spider for almost 4 years without an issue....think I'll have to give this one a try as well.
Am I understanding correctly that one terminal had power and the other did not? If so, this is normal. The unpowered wire should be grounded through the TTS on a cold engine. Was the unpowered wire tested for ground?...put a light on each of the CSI terminals when I had my son crank the starter....one light light, one did not.
Jim,
thanks for the reply. Yes, one terminal had power and one did not. I will double check that unpowered terminal for ground tonight (checked it the other night with my meter).
The conclusion is that since the CSI has a signal and ground but will not spray fuel, it is defective. Is the conclusion correct (it is from IAP tech page).
BTW, looking at the schematic for the TTS, I wonder why there is a resistance between W and ground when the TTS is open. The schematic shows the connection as a SPST switch....so where does the 160ohms come from? I'd expect to measure 'open circuit' from W to ground when the TTS was above temp (or when not cranking).
thanks for the reply. Yes, one terminal had power and one did not. I will double check that unpowered terminal for ground tonight (checked it the other night with my meter).
The conclusion is that since the CSI has a signal and ground but will not spray fuel, it is defective. Is the conclusion correct (it is from IAP tech page).
BTW, looking at the schematic for the TTS, I wonder why there is a resistance between W and ground when the TTS is open. The schematic shows the connection as a SPST switch....so where does the 160ohms come from? I'd expect to measure 'open circuit' from W to ground when the TTS was above temp (or when not cranking).
If the CSI has power, ground and fuel pressure yet doesn't spray, then I'd think there would be some kind of internal electrical/mechanical fault that would require replacement of the CSI.
Never having taken a TTS apart, I can't say where (or why) the 160 ohms comes from. It is quite apparent however that 160 ohms in the ground circuit is sufficient enough to lower the voltage potential at the CSI to less than CSI coil threshold voltage making it just as effective as an open circuit.The schematic shows the connection as a SPST switch....so where does the 160ohms come from? I'd expect to measure 'open circuit' from W to ground when the TTS was above temp (or when not cranking).
What is the problem ? Do you have to crank and crank then it starts ?
Yes, my car runs fine...just has difficulty starting. Used to be that my only problem was warm starting but that's not what I'm trying to address in this thread.What is the problem ? Do you have to crank and crank then it starts ?
A few months ago, my car became difficult to start when cold (cold by Florida standards!). I went from barely turning the key to having to crank for a minute or two.
Last week I discovered that my CSI was not spraying and my troubleshooting has lead me to a bad CSI.
CSI problem solved
I received the new cold start injector from Autozone this afternoon. I decided to do a sanity check and double check my original CSI one more time prior to changing out the parts.
The old injector did not spray any fuel at all.
I unpacked the CSI and connected the fuel and electrical and I sprayed without issue. We'll see how it holds up but for $42 it was worth a try.
Car fires immediately when cold.
Car still stubles when starting warm. I will address that problem next as my investigations have shown that my AAV does not open more than about 25% (as observed pulling it out of the freezer). The unit does close correctly when removed from oven. I've even noted it almost closed at room temperature. I've tried cleaning and adjusting the AAV but, again, after 27 years, maybe its just doing the best it can.
I received the new cold start injector from Autozone this afternoon. I decided to do a sanity check and double check my original CSI one more time prior to changing out the parts.
The old injector did not spray any fuel at all.
I unpacked the CSI and connected the fuel and electrical and I sprayed without issue. We'll see how it holds up but for $42 it was worth a try.
Car fires immediately when cold.
Car still stubles when starting warm. I will address that problem next as my investigations have shown that my AAV does not open more than about 25% (as observed pulling it out of the freezer). The unit does close correctly when removed from oven. I've even noted it almost closed at room temperature. I've tried cleaning and adjusting the AAV but, again, after 27 years, maybe its just doing the best it can.
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What was the part #? Only one I can find is listed at $94.99....Anybody bought a CSI from Autozone? They list an item for my spider at $41.95....
800-2044 $41.99
Interesting, here's the same part. If you got it for $41.99, you got a great deal!
Search: 800-2044 | Fuel Injector Cold Start Valve | AutoZone.com
Search: 800-2044 | Fuel Injector Cold Start Valve | AutoZone.com
the AAV is a very simple device. It is nothing more than a bimetal strip and a resistor wire that heats the bimetal strip, which causes it to bend and push a fiber block in front of the hole that runs thru the AAV.
If you are handy with a dremel tool, you can disassemble the aav. locate the roll pin (on the housing of the aav, near the electrical connector) and drill a hole on the side of the aav body opposite the roll pin. Then you can drive the roll pin out of the body and pull the coil and bimeta strip.
You can also file or grind down the lip of the perimiter of the aav where the block off disc is located and seperate the two halves of the aav.
I did this and found a bad solder joint on mine, re-soldered it, put it back together with some JB weld and it's still in the car.
If this is not possible, JC Whitney has some AAVs for sale that will work. I am convinced the shape of the aav innards are unimportant, and the fact that you need a device that provides a vacuum leak at idle and it goes away when hot is the key....
Python Injection rebuilds these. I have not looked into if they provide Alfa parts but it looks like they might rebuild a part of you send it to them.
If you are handy with a dremel tool, you can disassemble the aav. locate the roll pin (on the housing of the aav, near the electrical connector) and drill a hole on the side of the aav body opposite the roll pin. Then you can drive the roll pin out of the body and pull the coil and bimeta strip.
You can also file or grind down the lip of the perimiter of the aav where the block off disc is located and seperate the two halves of the aav.
I did this and found a bad solder joint on mine, re-soldered it, put it back together with some JB weld and it's still in the car.
If this is not possible, JC Whitney has some AAVs for sale that will work. I am convinced the shape of the aav innards are unimportant, and the fact that you need a device that provides a vacuum leak at idle and it goes away when hot is the key....
Python Injection rebuilds these. I have not looked into if they provide Alfa parts but it looks like they might rebuild a part of you send it to them.
You are convinced correctly.I am convinced the shape of the aav innards are unimportant, and the fact that you need a device that provides a vacuum leak at idle and it goes away when hot is the key....
It's literally just that, and why the AAV replacement with a manual heater valve or other make/marques version of an AAV work.
About the only real thing to be concerned with, other than the ability to completely close off flow once no longer needed, is that whatever you use is not too large an ID as the amount of air bypassed is directly relevant to how high the idle will be when the device is open. ('course if you can control the opening like in the heater bypass method, you can tailor things to suit)
Different zip code?
Try putting in 32408 as your zip. What zip did you use?Interesting, here's the same part. If you got it for $41.99, you got a great deal!
Search: 800-2044 | Fuel Injector Cold Start Valve | AutoZone.com
Whoa! Now that's just completely f#[email protected]%^ up and wrong! Looks like I'll be ordering from a different state and shipping to myself. Should save me a bit over $45!!
Thanks for the heads up!!!
Note to self, always check prices in another state (especially where I have people that can pick up parts for me!!!)
Thanks for the heads up!!!
Note to self, always check prices in another state (especially where I have people that can pick up parts for me!!!)
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
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