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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi All,

Could anyone help me with the following question:

At the moment the 1300 cc engine of my 1972 GT 1300 Junior Zagato with chassisnumber 1801112 is being overhauled. A loss of oilpressure due to clogged oilcanals in the crankshaft was fatal for the original bearings.
After we took the engine out of the car and read the enginenumber on the block we got confused. The number reads 00530.066110.

According to the Fusi bible the 1300 cc engine numbers run from:
00530.031087 to 00530.050322 in 1970,
00530.070001 to 00530.125656 in 1971,
00530.125657 to 00530.158330 in 1972.

First I noticed the strange gap between numbers at the end of 1970 and beginning of 1971.
Second thing is that the amount of engines in 1970 seems small compared to especially 1971.
Third point is that my engine number isn't listed.

Could their be a mistake in the Fusi bible? It would be logical for me that the numbers in 1970 run up to 00530.70000. That would make the batch of 1970 consistent with the number on my engine. It would also make the amount of engines produced in 1970 more consistent with especially 1971 and less with 1972.

If this is true, it would mean that the engine in my car is from 1970 where as the carbody is from 1972 (as stated by mrs. Ruocco at the documentazione storico 3 years ago).
My car spend it first 7 years in Rome with an architect. We don't know much about that period apart from the licenseplate 'Roma K61254'.

So possibilities as I see them are:
- an engine swap in the Italian days of my JZ (it travelled about 80.000 km's in that period)
- a special badge of engines for the GT 1300 Junior Zagato (as is the case with the 1600 Z)
- an engine (or batch of engines) sitting around for a while at the Zagato factory before being installed in the 1300 cc cars.

Any suggestions on this matter??
Thanks for the replies!!

Ciao, Olaf
 

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My JZ #1800748 (first registered 19710702 in A) has its original engine #66135; #1800753, which had its technical approval 19710505 (D), has engine #66108
Logical would be that the 1971 engines ran from #050323 to #125656. They never would have started with a new number range on January, 1st. The JZ sold not very good, so it is very possible that the parts for #1801112 were lying around for one or two years until the car had left Zagato und was sent to Alfa Romeo for completation in 1972
 

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Hi Olaf!

Don't worry!
The numbering matching between body and engine is not so sure.
My car 18000505, built in december 1970, has enegine number 00530 73589... not present in Fusi list....
But no problem. At that time the engine was taken in the available lot of Giulia family engines and installed when... it was necessary.

Ciao!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Thanks for the replies

Hi Martinue and Juniorz,

Thanks for the reply! There seems to be a small patern. At least two engines mentioned in your threads come close to my enginenumber 66110. I mean engines 66135 and 66108. So it wouldn't be strange to suggest that a batch of engines was shipped to Zagato to be installed in the Junior Z.

I find it easy to believe that they took random engines from the productionline for the 1300 cc cars but at least some engines seem to be in the range of 66110. By he way; for the 1600 cc cars Fusi states a seperate batch of engines with dedicated enginenumbers.

That they didn't mind putting which engine in which car I can also understand. With limited space in the factory I guess they took the engine that was in the front of the row, not the one in the back that is next in line as to the eniginenumber.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Olaf,
Why worry about numbers, you have a car that, according to Fusi, doesn't exist, so why should your engine.:p

Just fix the engine and bring it to the meeting on the 14th.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Don,

Thanks for the reply. Yep, according to Luigi Fusi my car doesn't exist. But according to Maurizio Tabucchi it does! And no, the engine isn't ready yet on the 14th of october. So I will bring my Bertone instead. Just as much fun! :D

Don, do you know the engine number of your car 1800515 (if it is still a 1300 cc engine)? It would be interesting to compare it with the numbers already mentioned (66135, 66110, 66108).

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Sorry, my car came without an engine, gearbox, interieur, glass etc. (you've seen the photo's) and I've put a 1600 in it.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Another enginenumber not included in the Fusi records

Hello Don and other forum members,

I received a private message from one of our fellow Junior Zagato owners. He has a car with a chassisnumber in the 600 range that, according to Maurizio Tabucchi in 'Guida all'identificazione Alfa Romeo', was made at the end of 1970or beginning of 1971. The original 1300 cc engine reads AR00530*58274*.

Another enginenumber that doesn't exist according to Luigi Fusi. Together with engines 00530*66108, 66110 and 66135, we can savely assume that Fusi is wrong and that the enginenumbers for 1970 ran from 00530*31087* up to at least 00530*66135. It wouldn't be strange to me if the batch for 1970 runs up to or near the 00530*70000 mark. :D

Any other Junior Zagato owners (and 1300 cc 1970 Alfa owners for that matter) that can shed light on this case?

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Hello Olaf and all,
Fusi was a good friend of mine and I can confirm that not all the engine or chassis numbers are correct. He himself would agree. I have had a few cars that did not exist and would kid him about it even pre war ones were production runs were small. The serial/ chassis part of his book was largely copied from factory production data and it was not possible for him to check their accuracy at all times. Elvira Ruocco's knowledge would scarcely fill the back of a postcard and when it came to serial or chassis numbers she would pick up Fusi's book just like you or I would!
Regards,
Dorien
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hello Dorien

Hello Dorien,

Thank you for the reply and the insight! The Fusi bible is the first book I will pick up if I have a question about Alfa Romeo's. It is still one of the best sources of information. Because of my special interest in Junior Zagato's, I try to check out inconsistencies concerning the JZ information.
Great to hear that you were kidding Luigi Fusi with cars that didn't exist according to his book. If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have such knowledge on the Alfa Romeo's. Dorien, how is 36-16-ZL coming along?

Ciao, Olaf Roeten
 

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Well I was able to confirm that the grilles on my Italian car are as wrong as 36-16-ZL.
I will try and fix this and then to the body shop.
For those of you reading this, Olaf and I have in private discussed the fact that AFRA supplies grilles that are too wide at the bottom. In other words the bottom of the V overlaps about 1". The top and bottom body cuves are a good fit. I plan to cut / fit and have them polished were I cut them. I also have a damaged original set that I have repaired and are quite usable.
Just info for those of you are thinking of buyng new grilles. Also the cut outs have the wrong radius but this is not critical. The top bridge piece is also too wide! Georgetti of Afra, thinks these were made by a master crafstman on a pattern supplied by Zagato. And there are those who beleive in Santa and the Easter Bunny!
Regards
Dorien
Dorien
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Santa and the easter bunny

Hi Dorien,

Had a great laugh. It's a pitty these stainless steel parts don't fit right away! We heard the same thing from Afra; that the girl was made on a original mould from Zagato. I doubt it.
The original stainless steel part was cut out of a stainless steel plate. I have seen a stainless steel plate that was formed around the edges on a press so that it would fit, but didn't have the centre cut out yet. It had an original sticker of Alfa Romeo on it with a partnumber. It was in the stock of a known Dutch supplier of JZ parts.
The copies of Afra are made by welding or soldering the pieces together. Totally different production method. Have a look at you original grill. I did and there are no welding/soldering marks on it.

Dorien, would you do me a favour? Please have a look at the engine number on your JZ? If it's still the original 1300 cc I will be curious as to what the enginenumber is!

Ciao! Olaf
 

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Hi Olaf,
The engine number as best as I can see is AR 00526A then something that looks like an E and the 1555. So AR 00526A E1555.
Do I win something?
Dorien
 

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Missing lynx

Hi Olaf,
...Do I win something?
Dorien
Probably ;) But we'll wait until later to reveal the secret:p
My cousin, Glenn Hyde, would love your 'nom de plume'. I've often tried to incorporate "hyd..." into my signature, but nothing really seems to fit within the ALFA context, hence I yield to a historical reference.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The price!

Hi Olaf,
The engine number as best as I can see is AR 00526A then something that looks like an E and the 1555. So AR 00526A E1555.
Do I win something?
Dorien
Hi Dorien,

Thanks for having a look! The AR 00526A relates to the 1600 cc Giulia Super engine. This according to Luigi Fusi and Maurizio Tabucchi.
The price is the revelation that your car has a 1600 cc engine that was built from 1969 onwards. I couldn't find the 'E' in the books, sorry!

Ciao, Olaf
 

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I just pulled the block of my original chasis number 1800015, 1300 engine out from under the work bench and looked at the engine number plate.....it is blank... no numbers or even any indication that there were ever any numbers stamped on it. How about them apples !!!
Pat
 

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Pat,
Have you looked a the correct place, on European cars the engine number plate under the carburetors is usually blank, the engine number is stamped in the bell house flange on the exhaust side. With the engine in the car and the use of a flashlight you can just see the number near the flanges of the header. So with the engine out is should be easy to spot.

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Engine number

Hello Pat and Don,

Thanks for having a look at the enginenumber of your very early car!

To illustrate our european engine numbers, you will find attached pictures of the rebuilt engine of GT 1300 Junior Zagato chassis 1801112.
On monday the 12th of November, we will build in the engine and start it!

Ciao, Olaf
 

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