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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know how much horsepower a stock milano single clutch can handle?
 

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I ran my 3.2 (250 HP at the wheels) with a stock Milano clutch with 50000 miles.
Jes
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the information. Was this your racing car that caught on fire? what happened to it?
 

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No. Have to make it 12 characters...
Jes
 

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Chuck, there is absolutely ZERO wrong with the selection of a clutch-unit that was made for your car!

Andrew Garcia at Garcia Alfa Racing in Houston Texas put it together for us - I simply installed it for you. A great deal of $$$ was spent on that clutch unit - if you don't want it, I will GLADLY take it off of your hands!

You rear flywheel was lightened by about 25%. Next, Andrew installed (what he told me) was an 8-puck street/track clutch - not to heavy, not too grabby and yet - I]plenty[/I] right for the power of that motor.) It is also good enough for track use. Like Jes said - even his SA-built 3.2 ran on a stock Milano V6 clutch unit - you have more than that!!!

Finally, Andrew had the entire assembly balanced as an individual unit - separate from the transaxle, separate from the front flywheel & power-plant and separate from the drive-shaft - which you had balanced by whomever... However, as soon as I went on the freeway for the first time (on the way to the dyno shop), I realized that it was slipping, so something is wrong!

At this stage there is a bit of a blame-game running it's course; Andrew Garcia contends that "it must be a bad pressure plate from a batch of clutch-assemblies that I sent down to him for rebuild." He insists that there is/was no way to test a pressure-plate - I call bull**** on that one! It could also be oil on the plate itself, or maybe Andrew used a bad clutch plate!?

Either way, Andrew has committed to replace the unit at no cost to you - just send the entire unit back to him for inspection. I would go ahead and send the whole **** TA back to him - let him go through all of it again - who knows what else could be wrong!? The last time I saw the car, there was a small bit of "weeping" from the transaxle - Andrew said that he would fix that too...
 

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I will throw in the numbers I know from first hand experience. These are NOT limits, just amounts I got away with.

We have run a stock (new) clutch with 228rwhp.
We have run a Performatek clutch disk with the stock pressure plate with 276rwhp.

I have to agree with JJ, I suspect the slipping issue is from a contaminated clutch disk. Since I was really little my dad has been making me paranoid about contaminating friction surfaces, so that's sort of my default assumption.

Greg
 

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Stop yelling at cchan!

"I second that motion Gertrude!". Most likely "earl on the clutch disc" or more remotely but definitely possible, weak pressure plate. Even more possibly, the thickness of the aftermarket clutch disc is too thin for the amount of material removed from the rear flywheel.

I personally respect Andrew, his work, and his racing experience. He has been on this board a long time and offers useful info to those in need time after time...

Just as I find in my professional experience. Vendors are all too willing to point fingers at each other when something's broke. I feel for chhan because he's getting beat-up for being ignorant.

I suppose if you're going to sell used clutch assemblies, you should have some sort of device (even if you have to build it yourself) to test the clamping force. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
JJ, if there was nothing wrong with the clutch set up that you gave and installed for me it would work right now and It would not be an issue. ;)

I have spoken with Andrew and sent him another check. He told me alot of issues on this but I really don't know what to say or who to believe. I am just wanting to educate myself further and complete my project. The Alfa is going forward well now and runs just like you said it would.:)
 

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Chuck, there is absolutely ZERO wrong with the selection of a clutch-unit that was made for your car! A great deal of $$$ was spent on that clutch unit.

However, as soon as I went on the freeway for the first time (on the way to the dyno shop), I realized that it was slipping, so something is wrong!
JJ, if there was nothing wrong with the clutch set up that you gave and installed for me it would work right now and It would not be an issue. ;)
Chuck, CLEARLY - in my statements above - I did NOT say that there was NOTHING wrong with the clutch! I said that there was nothing wrong with the clutch-work/options/modifications selected (since similarly modified clutch assemblies worked 100% in the first two boxes/clutches that Andrew prepared for us...)

CLEARLY - in my statements above - I made it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that something went wrong with the desired end-result!!!

In any event - there should be NO reason for you to send more money to Andrew!!! In that same batch of clutch-assemblies, I sent Andrew FIVE complete sets of clutches for rebuild (one went to Australia and one went to you...) There are three left and I find it hard to believe that ALL of them are somehow bad. The Australian box/clutch is fine!

Also, I saw a minimal droplet of a clear, thin, oil-like substance at the center-base of your box as soon as I lifted it in to place to install it (BEFORE ANY FLUID HAD BEEN ADDED TO THE BOX!) I brought this to Andrew's attention by cell phone that day PRIOR TO COMPLETING the installation! Andrew assured me that there was NO WAY for there to be a leak since the box was shipped to you empty and he suggested that I continue with the installation and that he will take care of any issues. I wiped it clean, sprayed it off with brake-clean and continued with the installation.

On my next trip back down to work on the car, I noticed a droplet of (what looked like) transmission fluid forming at the base-center of the box! AGAIN I contacted Andrew and this time he suggested tightening up some of the case bolts around the bottom of the box. Again he ASSURED me to continue and that he would take care of any related issues if that did not solve it. I tightened the case bolts and again I sprayed the base of the box with brake-clean and wiped it down...

That was my last trip down as you know - don't know what has come of it however, I strongly urge you to send the entire unit back to Andrew for repair/inspection.
 

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I personally respect Andrew, his work, and his racing experience. He has been on this board a long time and offers useful info to those in need time after time...
Let me tell you why I am adamant that the box should go back to your precious Andrew Garcia for repair/inspection; again - read the pertinent information in my post above and then read what follows here...

Once I was told by Andrew to not be alarmed by the droplet of an oil-like substance forming on the outside-base of the box and to continue with the installation, I proceeded to fill the box with transmission-fluid. MUCH TO MY SURPRISE AND DISMAY, when I pulled the fill-plug on the side of the box I discovered fine sand-blasting sand (mixed with the same, thin, clear oil-like substance observed earlier emanating from the base of the box) lodged inside of the fill-plug and in the fill-plug recess! I found the same mixture of sand and oil in the base of the drain-plug!

ONE MORE alarmed call to Andrew! Your precious Andrew Garcia proceeded to inform me that it was simply a little bit of sand from cleaning the case that must have remained lodged in the fill-recess and/or in the vent/breather on the top of the case! (This was the beginning of the end of my relationship with Garcia Alfa Racing, but since he committed to fix it and given that I was so entangled in several parts/gearbox/repair deals back and forth with Andrew, I decided to keep my cool in order to make sure that he can be held somewhat accountable for his actions without a fight!)

Andrew recently - in one of our final conversations - before rolling over on almost 5,000 dollars that he owes me for the 3 x 6-speed 164-conversion gearboxes from South Africa (now for sale directly from me) - fed me some good bullsheit about these boxes never sealing properly and the recesses on these cases being such that one can never get them 100% clean bla-bla-bla... Bullcrappy Andrew! I've inspected one of these split-open cases now myself and have concluded as follows:

Andrew is full of bull. The sand remaining in the box and the leaking case are a DIRECT result of the sloppy and hasty work that Andrew is perhaps less known for (but becoming more and more known for as we speak!) The thin, semi-clear, oil-like substance that I witnessed weeping from the base of this gearbox is nothing else but solvent-tank liquid! Simple as that. After sand-blasting the case Andrew proceeded to do a crappy job of blowing the case clean and rinsing it properly! He stuck it in the solvent-tank, kinda-sorta-so-so, but didn't rinse it properly and FAILED to use brake clean and compressed-air, (or some other dry/clean method) to ensure clean and dry and oil-free gearbox case mating surfaces.

He then proceeded to apply his mainstay gray Yamabond silicon sealant to semi-greasy/oily gearbox case matting-surfaces, resulting in a poor bond/seal...! The resulting leak-down of solvent-tank liquid (somewhat like diesel, but with a slightly higher solvent quality) continued to contaminate the silicon sealed surfaces and the rest is history! We received an "empty" box on Chuck's side and it was leaking solvent trapped in the sand in the various recesses!

While the gearbox was shipped from Andrew directly to Chuck EMPTY, the solvent/trapped sand migrated down towards the base of the case and permeated through the seals between various case-sections!

As far as feeling bad for ol' Chucky-boy "getting beaten up for being ignorant" - he still owes me over 9,000 dollars on this job and refuses to pay me! Chuck Chan lost track of all of the things that he added to the original order of just the 24 valve engine (and the amount of additional time that it was going to take to nstall it all with everything that he bought additionally - over and above the engine!)

My bill came in at around 30% above my original estimates (COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE FOR A PROJECT THIS EXTENSIVE - ACCORDING TO 3 INDEPENDENT RESTORATION OUTFITS THAT I CONSULTED WITH ON THIS.) And yet, Chuck felt compelled to screw me on the balance AND not let me near the car to be able to complete the project (AS AN EXCUSE to not pay me...)

Now he can truly say the car was a mess - BECAUSE I WAS NOT GIVEN THE CHANCE OF ANOTHER TRIP DOWN TO COMPLETE IT!!!

So let's not feel too sorry for Chuck there, OK!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
JJ,

Gary Hum (Attorney) Call him anytime.

If you had any integrity at all you would not be in this position. Please stop responing to my thread as I have done everything that I original said I would. I can now see why they kicked you off the GTV6 site.
 

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JJ,

Gary Hum (Attorney) Call him anytime.

If you had any integrity at all you would not be in this position. Please stop responing to my thread as I have done everything that I original said I would. I can now see why they kicked you off the GTV6 site.
Very NIIIICE to refer to a lawyer :mad:

You indirectly insult JJ over and over, and then just tell him not to respond in your thread :confused: IMO you leave him no choice but to drag your laundry out in the open.

Do you care to enlighten us regarding the "I can now see why they kicked you off the GTV6 site" comment?

Have fun in court.

Jes
 

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Well, unfortunately the picture is a bit larger than just a simple "beef" - I'm out 13,000 dollars plus between these two!

Here, maybe this will help;

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anything-about-alfa-romeos-alfabb-com/51334-thief-buys-vick-autosport-fort-worth-texas.html
JJ thanks for the link. What a shame for a great service to go down the tubes like that. One thing I would say though,

if this Garcia guy has shafted so many of you, why dont you get together and shell him out of the water in court!!?. This man would have been in jail by now in the UK. some cars not finished for over 2 years!?? how on earth would any business get away with that!!? the chap would be out of business completely, in short order, and in the high court just as quickly in the UK, if he were to behave like that. How the heck has this been allowed to slide for so long?? why havent any of you taken this chap to court?, I thaught USA was litigation central?! Is this kind of thing more tricky to nail in the USA?
 

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John's not in California and I don't see any cover up. If a car passes visual inspection and emmisions by a smog center it's legal. Some techs will only worry about emmisions and some will look deeper. One can also go to a smog ref and submit evidence to have a non original engine allowed in California. I've been researching this adnauseum for a few months now and there are remedies for non conforming engine replacements.
 

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Modern engine management systems do not hurt emissions. Quite the contrary, they have been a great help in managing fuel and waste. That's why they have been developed by the industry and why it can be very beneficial to offer good fuel management for set-ups that didn't originally have them.

Best regards,
 

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What's the penalty for installing gray market engines and engine management systems and helping them get past the California inspectors? I assume you will soon find out John, as will Jes, and Chuck.
Just to be clear (since there is some misunderstanding, apparently), I only have one street Alfa - a Milano verde with stock engine and management. My race cars are a different story, but they are not subject to smog.
Jes
 

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Discussion Starter #19
What's the penalty for installing gray market engines and engine management systems and helping them get past the California inspectors? I assume you will soon find out John, as will Jes, and Chuck.

Doing it publicly was one mistake. Fighting about it another. Covering it up?

The CARB of Inspectors will LOVE these threads... documented by the way just in case the mods chooses to delete them and become an accessory.
What are you talking about?? My engine is not a gray market engine. I have the receipt for a USA car engine with correct VIN's, etc. We have spent hours tweaking the system to pass CA smog, cats, etc and have the correct documents to register the Alfa. Maybe its a mistake to share my build with the public but I thought that this is what one does on this forum. I am not fighting anyone. There were problems that were delt with. Finally, cover up?? I have no idea what you are talking about.:confused:
 

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For a first post, that was pretty rude and accusatory. Nice way to start out..

As far as a later engine, that can be made legal as long as the factory engine management is retained. It wouldn't be impossible to legally get chuck's car to pass, but it would be a lot of work for sure.
 
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