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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Thanks for the ongoing discussion. It's really helpful to have this help going forward. Jim, how can a starter be destroyed? Centerline said that it was completely melted inside. If not spin to destruction then could a mashed up ring gear do this to a starter? Could I have an electrical problem? I just fitted a relay into the starter circuit. Could poor ground or 12v connections do this? I would hate to replace a starter only to have the same thing happen again.

Ts
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
That does make sense. So perhaps replacing ring gear to allow a modern new starter is best since rebuilds may always be prone to flaws. I am at the point now where I want to fix the whole starter issue for good since the car has been on stands on and off for months

I am moving ahead with the job. Got the exhaust apart so I can tilt the engine with no difficulty. Clutch slave is away from the transmission. By undoing the two circlips and simply pulling it through the mount on the trans. The top two trans bolts are out. I mustn't forget to free up the reverse light switch connection. Haven't looked at this yet. Also I read that there's a flywheel inspection plate that has to be removed. Is that the 4 bolt plate under the tarter mount area. Facing forward?

Doing a little bit each night. Probably will aim for the big pull before the end of the week. A local alfa shop., group 2, can find a replacement flywheel with later ring gear compatible with modern starters. I hope I can remove the old flywheel without too much of a struggle

Thanks to all for your help and support

Ts
 

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replacing ring gear to allow a modern new starter is best since rebuilds may always be prone to flaws. I am at the point now where I want to fix the whole starter issue for good
What do you define as a "modern new starter"? The 1.1 hp starters used on post '75 Alfas? The aftermarket, gear-reduction starters that Performatek and Alfaholics sell? I think the absolute key point is to make sure the new starter and ring gear are compatible. The vendor websites that advertise the aftermarket, gear-reduction starters don't say whether they are designed to work with 130 or 131 tooth ring gears.

Also I read that there's a flywheel inspection plate that has to be removed. Is that the 4 bolt plate under the starter mount area. Facing forward?
Yup, that's it. Four, 6mm nuts & bolts.

I hope I can remove the old flywheel without too much of a struggle
That isn't a tough job as long as you can prevent the crankshaft from turning. The flywheel locking tool designed for an air-cooled Volkswagen (pictured in post #13 above) makes the job easy.

The hard job is going to be putting the transmission back in. I always do this with the engine out, and even then it's difficult.
 

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Replacing the gearbox should not be hard if you use a transmission jack. If you don't own one and cannot borrow one, then shelling out $70 or so for one from Harbor Freight is a good idea.

My Spider was the first Alfa that I owned and the gearbox broke a few weeks after I bought it so replacing it was my first Alfa job. It took me less than a day and I did not have a tranny jack.
 

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I've pulled the tranny a few times on an S3 Spider on my back with the HF trans jack, made the job a lot easier. I still use it sometimes for other stuff even though I have a lift now.

Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I bought the Hf trans jack, so hopefully that will help. I thought that if I measured the transmissions angle and height as I took it out, then replacing it would be easier simply by setting it up in the same position relative to the engine on the way back. Hopefully tonight I will remove the remaining bolts and then see if I can get it to pull back and away. I ordered the VW ring gear clamp, this sounds like it should help alot in getting the fly wheel off. Should hear from group 2 about the fly wheel and starter options in next couple of days

Ts
 

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I've got that VW flywheel lock, worked well on the 4 cyl cars, useless on my V6's. Measuring might help but I never did, it is a little fiddly to get stuff back on but just move by small amounts and don't force it, things should slide together easily if you have it just right.

I found the use of a 2-3 foot socket extension helpful to get the upper bolts/nuts on the S3 Spider, don't know about the earlier ones.

Kevin
 

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starter issues

you might be looking at a number of issues here.
sounds like the starter failed because the starter failed.
i presume there is nothing wrong w the engine so that it would resist turning over - even timing too advanced (dramatically advanced) can make it resist turning over.
metal shavings...
if you sent a core to centerline or iap (or told them the car model) they would send you the proper rebuilt unit...or at least that would be their intent.
however, if you went to your local autoparts store or one of the on line super store retailers - i believe bosch now lists one part number that all of these things supersede to... mostly they are right! but not in the case of the 130 tooth ring gear units. while the actual mounting bolt locations and outer register in the bell housing are identical (so they will bolt up interchangably) those starters have a different geometry and they do not work w the 131 tooth ring gears or vice versa. sometimes, they work OK for a little while but eventually, they start to show their true nature and the mismatch appears followed by grinding and then refusal to engage.
the other thing - unless you have a very thorough maintenance history on the car, can't be too positive as to what ring gear is actually on the car because they are interchangable on the flywheel.
irrc, if measure OD from tooth top to tooth top, the 130s are 10.875". the 131s are 11". or you can count the teeth.

you mention using the shoulder bolt, but do not mention the shim. of course it does not show in the picture but i guess it would not. so - did you use the shim? if left out, this will most certainly cause netal bits and then, grinding.

actually - looking at the pic of ring gear, does not look too bad... hard to tell from here. if condition is ok, just count up the teeth and get the proper starter. should work poifectly.
andy
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I did employ shoulder bolt and shim when I refitted the starter. Your point about the ring gear to starter match is well taken, and I will be guided by group 2 here in Seattle who are dedicated alfa mechanics and, I believe, really know what they are talking about. There's so much metal shard around the bell housing that I think the ring gear must have been significantly chewed up, so I am going to take this opportunity to wed a more modern starter to the engine with an updated ring gear. The long extensions really worked well along the bell housing, and I really like the way that the transmission lift gives control. Will see if I can get the transmission out and back....

More to come

TS
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Managed to drop the transmission this morning. Went very smoothly with the transmission jack. I managed to get the flywheel off with a harbor freight air impact wrench. The ring gear is very damaged in one section. I suspect that is where the engine comes to rest and where the starter pinion is always engaging. Should have replacement ring gear by next week.
When reassembling what torque for the flywheel bolts and clutch locating bolts and should I use loctite on the flywheel bolts?

I should replace the rear main seal there's lots of oil leaking below this midsection of the engine. Does any one have any tips on removing the seal and how to drive in the new seal?

I will try to post some pictures

Ts
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
On the ring gear there is a short segment of quite extreme wear. The teeth here are a mm or more shorter and butchered on the tips. Here's a view of the flywheel. There is a steel ring plate under the six bolts. This has two Flat sides. Does it matter how its reassembled? The is no flap washer to lock the flywheel bolts but didn't see any loctite when I removed them
 

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There is a steel ring plate under the six bolts. This has two Flat sides. Does it matter how its reassembled?
No.

The is no flap washer to lock the flywheel bolts but didn't see any loctite when I removed them
Use green or blue Loctite when reassembling.
 

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Use green or blue Loctite when reassembling.
And don't forget to let it dry! One time when I put one on I put the loctite on and then took it out for a spin a short time later. A couple days later I heard some nasty rattling. When I went under for a look and a couple of the bolts had worked themselves loose, I guess I must have wicked all the wet loctite out!

Kevin
 

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A couple days later I heard some nasty rattling. When I went under for a look and a couple of the bolts had worked themselves loose,...
How long does Loctite take to dry? I would have thought that "a couple of days" would do it.
 
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