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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I purchased this starter a few months ago but I've lost my paperwork and so I don't recall which Alfa it's for. I think it's for an 89 spider, but I'm not sure.

My intention is to use the new starter on a 2.0 liter engine I'm building for my Super.

The part # is 1073017 Bosch. The starter has 9 teeth.

I presume it requires a 131 tooth ring gear but I've also read (on the IAP site) the the starter works with 130 tooth ring gears while Centerline lists one 131 tooth ring gear for 115/116 cars. Do these starters work with standard dimension id/od 130/131 ring gears or is there a difference I should know about? I think I read in an earlier thread that the later model starters used a different sized ring gear.

This is a bit confusing. I'm getting an aluminum flywheel for my engine and I don't want to make an expensive mistake.
 

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If this is the light weight, internally geared starter, it is right for the "normal" fly wheel found on any, even early 2000 engine and the 75 TS (90, Alfetta, Giulietta). I know of only one starter gear size for all these engines, even as older ones come from other manufacturer than Bosch and most are the heavy, simple construction.

This advanced starter fitted all 2 liter light weight flywheels I ever got. So you should get the right thing anyway.

Only with the smaller engines you can run into trouble and should carefully match flywheel and starter before building or buying, as they may have different ring gear.
After 40 years, naturally there have been so many repairs, I would not bet what to find with which engine. First thing I always do when pulling the starter out for what ever reason, is count teeth and write on the engine if its 8 or 9. I hate doing things twice on cars like fitting the wrong gear.

Maybe google the numbers you find on yours to be perfectly sure. Bosch starters have a 10-digit number with 0001 at the beginning.

It could be 0 001 108 081 for example.

A good thing is the Bosch online data base if you don´t already know it.

You can verify most parts by numbers and check if they are still available at Bosch (Germany?).

Bosch Automotive Aftermarket - Products

Bosch Automotive Tradition - Parts - Online catalogue
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
If this is the light weight, internally geared starter, it is right for the "normal" fly wheel found on any, even early 2000 engine and the 75 TS (90, Alfetta, Giulietta). I know of only one starter gear size for all these engines, even as older ones come from other manufacturer than Bosch and most are the heavy, simple construction.
Thanks for this, Chris. Here's a summary of what I've found from various sites and emails.

IAP here in the States has a comment on their site that the lightweight starters with work with both 130 tooth and 131 tooth ring gears. I'd heard this before and so I sent an email and they confirmed that this was the case. This is in contarast with a general consensus that the right ring gear has 131 teeth. This is an interesting piece of information from a respected vendor.

As you have suggested whatever the tooth count it's safe to assume we're talking about using a standard dimension 105 2.0 flywheel (more about this in a minute) and ring gear with a late Spider lightweight starter.

Rock Auto, a large on-line vendor here in the US, lists the same Bosch lightweight starter part number for almost the whole range all 2.0 Alfa Spiders.

Classic Alfa mentioned on their site that the lightweight starter shown in the photo above is used in "retrofitting", presumably to earlier cars.

OKParts in Germany lists the lightweight starter as fitting a wide range of Alfa models from 105's to 75's.

Now a caveat. Classic Alfa points out that some late Spiders are fitted with a larger diameter ring gear---250mm versus the more standard 230mm for earlier 2.0 cars. Paul Spruell's site mentions this dimensional difference also.

So, all this information begs an important question. Can you reliably use a lightweight late Spider starter mated to a 105 sized flywheel and ring gear?

Your experience tells us that is true and certainly practical experience counts. Curiously, this information is only implied but not specifically stated by the vendors (except, perhaps, the OKParts listing). I suspect that what's happening is that the vendors a focused more on selling ring gears and starters for normal applications and less interested in getting into parts interchangability issues. But that's what the bb is for. :)

What I'm hoping to do in this thread is create a specific recommendation for using a late spider, lightweight starter with a 105 sized flywheel and ring gear. The newer lightweight starter is such a better, more powerful design that knowing what it will work with is something anyone contimplating a stater replacement would most likely want to know.
 

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I believe that there are two different gear reduction starters. The first type was fitted to late S3 spiders - about 1986 - 1989, and they are compatible with 75 - 85 Spiders. I have one on my '79. The second type was fitted to S4 Spiders and is compatible with 72 - 74 2L motors.
 

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I believe that there are two different gear reduction starters. The first type was fitted to late S3 spiders - about 1986 - 1989, and they are compatible with 75 - 85 Spiders.
Right, that's the 011-108-024. They are compatible with 131 tooth ringgears.

The second type was fitted to S4 Spiders and is compatible with 72 - 74 2L motors.
And that's the 011-108-081, compatible with 130 tooth ringgears.

180out said:
The part # is 1073017 Bosch. The starter has 9 teeth.
All 2L starters have 9 teeth. That 1073017 part number isn't the only # on the starter - can you find either of the above #'s on it? That will tell you whether it was designed to work with a 130 or 131 tooth ringgear.

IAP here in the States has a comment on their site that the lightweight starters with work with both 130 tooth and 131 tooth ring gears. I'd heard this before and so I sent an email and they confirmed that this was the case. This is in contarast with a general consensus that the right ring gear has 131 teeth. This is an interesting piece of information from a respected vendor.
Not to say that I know more than IAP, but personally, I wouldn't intermix parts intended for 130 and 131 tooth ringgears. Replacing a chewed-up ringgear is just too much work to merit experimenting.
 

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Right, that's the 011-108-024. They are compatible with 131 tooth ringgears.
...
And that's the 011-108-024, compatible with 130 tooth ringgears.
...
Not to say that I know more than IAP, but personally, I wouldn't intermix parts intended for 130 and 131 tooth ringgears. Replacing a chewed-up ringgear is just too much work to merit experimenting.
Can't be right, Jay. Those two numbers are the same but for different ringgears? Did you transpose a number or something?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
The mystery deepens . . . :)

I checked the Bosch USA site and found the same PN #SR494X starter listed for Spiders from the following years: '72, '75, '89, '91. This is the same PN used by Rock Auto to identify Alfa Spider Bosch starters.

I then checked the Bosch.de site Chris recommended and found starter
# 0 001 108 024 listed for cars up to '82. But the same pn was then used for cars from '83 on.

Next I moved on to the OKparts site in Germany. They sell a lightweight starter listed for the 105, 115, to 75 range of Alfas. .

OKP Parts and Engineering GmbH

The PN Jay asked for on my starter is: 1005821418 and corresponds (I think) to a late 80's Spider (probably '89?). I purchased this from Rock Auto about a year ago. When I did a quick search using the other PN (1073017) shown on my starter I found a older post here that mentioned this starter coming from an '89 Spider.

As mentioned the starter that is identified on the Classic Alfa site as being used for retrofits is identical to the one I show in the photo. I've asked Andrew Stevens, who sometimes posts here, for additional information so maybe we'll hear from him.

A Jay pointed out, ring gear teeth count changed over time: early 105 cars used 130 tooth ring gears while later cars switched to 131 tooth gears, and still later cars returned to 130 tooth gears. Some of those late cars, however, used 250mm ring gears while earlier cars use 230mm ring gears. And, if this wasn't confusing enough, Classic Alfa mentions on their site that European FI Spiders and US FI Spiders use different ring gears!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yesterday, I received an informative email from Andrew Stevens at Classic Alfa regarding their lightweight starters.

"Our customers have fitted the EL013 (Series 4 Spider style) starter to a range of 2.0l cars and we've not had any returns on them at all that I can recall in the last 3 years. They are also fitted onto Twin Spark 75/Milanos and possibly other cars that have twin spark engines that you didn't see in the States! . . . As I mentioned, we also have had some rebuilt with 8 teeth to fit the earlier/smaller engined cars as well and have not had any problems with those either."

So far, we have received wisdom that suggests that the lightweight starter in question can be used across a wider range of Alfa models than we might have thought. To this I'll add that the Alfa parts vendors aren't in the habit of claiming parts will fit when, in fact, they won't. So, I think it reasonable to give some credibility to their recommendations.

But the real proof happens when you fit one of these to your car and it works or it doesn't work. I'm about to build a 2.0 engine using this starter which will engage an aluminum flywheel with 131 ring gear. I'll let you know how it works.

Watch this space. :)
 

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I'm really interested. Did you solve this issue? What starter did you end up using? I installed and tried to use the SR484X and it engages very loudly. Worried that I damaged my new aluminum flywheel I removed it and performed an inspection of the flywheel and starter. I saw no damage but I'm not convinced that this is the proper starter. The ring gear is a late model item from IAP and fit the flywheel without a problem. It was suggested in this post that a 0 001 108 081 starter maybe the correct part. In looking for this part number I found that it has superceded to a 0 986 015 630, I'm going to check with my Bosch supplier tomorrow about this part number. I haven't had much luck looking for answers and now I'm asking the BB guys, What did you do and where did you get your starter? Thanks in advance Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I've had some slow going this summer so I haven't yet built my 2 liter motor. This morning I talked to a friend who knows a lot more about this than I do. Here's his comment: The lightweight, gear reduction starters have a higher pitched sound than the ealier starters. If you've ever listened to one of the late model spiders with one of these starters you'll see what I mean. The sound is quite different from what we're used to with the 105 cars. Moreover, higher pitched sounds often sound louder to the ears than lower pitched sounds.

Keep in mind that, if the various sources are correct, and since later model spiders came with 130 or 131 tooth ring gears---apparently the same starter is suitable for both. I have an aluminum flywheel w/ 131 tooth ring gear which I intend to try. I chose the 131 tooth ring gear because more late spiders seemed to come with this count than with the 130 tooth ring gear.

We can't be the only people doing this so hopefully someone who's made the swap will offer some opinions.
 

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K, So here is what I've been told today by Larry at APE... He said that the light weight starters been 89 and down and 90 and up are almost the same. The nose piece is the only real difference. The bolt holes can be drilled out ( I think made oval is more the case ) to allow the starter in my case to be move away from the ring gear and there by diminishing the noise and the current draw of the starter. So, the bottom line is that the SR484X can be used with the newer flywheel and ring gear if the mounting holes are moved out to allow for more gear clearance. Tomorrow morning I will undertake this modification to the starter and clearance it about 1mm and see if this does the trick. I will report back to let you know what happens. To clarify, Since I will modify the starter the holes will have to be moved in toward the centerline of the starter. If you modify the bellhousing the holes would have to be moved out away from the centerline of the starter. Sure hopes this works as I have been raising all kinds of stink with my parts supplier (P.S.) and local parts people and have even got Bosch,USA involved since their just down the street from my work. Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
What year Alfa are you working on? Also if you can, please take photos of the process we can actually see what you've done.
 

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Jim, Glad you asked. My car is an 85 Spyder with a 72 engine and a p. Spruell aluminum flywheel with a IAP ring gear. Kind of a ***** actually but I'm not a believer in being original. I will take pictures and provide an explanation of the work (if successful ? ) I don't like advertising my errors. Bill
 

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OK, images attached, First I had to decide which way the starter would turn in the hole so that the mounting holes were properly elongated in the correct direction. The first picture is the starter in unmodified form. The second is the holes blacked out so you can see them and marked with and awl to .040" or 1 mm. Then I measured the holes, the upper and lower holes are 8.40mm and the hole for the centerbolt is 9.06mm. I tried not to increase these measurements just make the holes oval. I remounted the starter to the bellhousing with no shims of any kind, right up to the aluminum, pried the starter away from the block (and because I machined the holes correctly), the starter worked correctly and I got my 9 month engine project started and the RJR racing cams loped along (Great!!!) and the Gordon Raymond oil pump worked as described (Great!!!!) now comes the rest of the installation and final tuning for break-in. Hope this helps. Bill
 

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So, I still wasn't happy... I pulled the starter three more times to see why it was still a little noisy. What I found was that the bendix was engaging too deeply into the ring gear and when I got the depth right then I ovaled out the holes some more (approx. another .040"/1mm). Now the starter is good. Attached is the picture, I know it's not pretty but it works. I'll probably have to tighten the mounting bolts now and again but it works and that is whats important. Added note: I have a contact at Bosch USA working on a correct solution to this problem and I will add to this post IF they can provide a good solution, NO PROMISES!!!!!! I'll try. Bill :D
 

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Light Weight Starter on 74 2L

Thanks for the great information. I am at a similar place and would like to know if the smaller light weight starter from an 85-89 2L will work on a 74 2L.
I am rebuilding the engine and transmission on my 74. I sourced the 85 starter last year from a BB member and then had it rebuilt.

Here is what I know and what I have read from the BB.

85 Starter- # 1005 821 071 and 1073017 (3 Bolt Solenoid) 9 tooth pinion
This is the starter on the left in the first picture.
Auto part Tool accessory


This is the id on the 85 starter.

Technology Electric motor Electronic device Auto part

Auto part Machine Metal


74 Starter- #1005822 and 274-4 (2 Bolt Solenoid) 9 tooth pinion

The 74 starter is in the middle.

Auto part Tool accessory


79 Starter- #10C5823 and 14308 (3 Bolt Solenoid) 9 tooth pinion


I can not confirm the actual year of the starters since I have no idea what the PO's installed. The starter year reference is the Spider it was removed from.


So, I have had my Spica 2L flywheel with 130 teeth lightened. I want to bolt on the light weight 85 starter. From what I can tell from the BB it should be a direct replacement with no modifications.

I have measured the distance from the mating surface on the starters to the end of the housing and they are the same.

The distance from the center mounting hole to the center of the shaft is the same on both starters.

The only difference I can see is the height of the bendix assembly. The 85 is a little shorter.
Machine Machine tool Auto part Gear Tool accessory


It has been suggested that I switch out the bendix units from the 85 to the 74. That clearly will not work. The only option is to install the 85 onto the bell housing.

Anyone know for sure if this will bolt right on and work with a 130 tooth ring gear. Everything I have read on the BB suggests that it will.

Thanks,
 

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I can't confirm with your starter part number, but:
- at least it's not the starter number I have (0 001 108 081) that did cause me interference problems with a 131 ring gear, i.e. the one I have should run with a 130 tooth.
- if you can measure the shoulder bolt hole to the far side of the bendix teeth (ie the same as shoulder bolt hole to the bendix shaft center plus half the OD of the bendix gear), and confirm it's the same as your original starter, then it will work. The key (ignoring number of teeth on bendix and other larger issues) is that the engagement distance of the two gears (bendix and ring gear) is the same. If the shoulder hole to bendix far side measurement on the new starter is larger, it won't engage right.

Also, a quote off of Jim Steck's website from about a decade ago (not sure if it's there still):
"Flywheel - Use a 130-tooth ring gear ( from '69-74 spider, GTV, Berlina or '89-'94 spider) and geared starter from twinspark or 89-94 spider.
Flywheel (optional) - Use the 131-tooth ring gear and geared starter from 86-88 spider.
"

I thought that papajam had posted a list of part numbers for the newer starters but I couldn't find it.

I also found in my notes that the ring gear IDs are different between the 130 and 131 tooth versions, which is why you can't just swap them. Not directly relevant, but in case it's useful to someone.

FWIW
Neil
 

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2L Starter Interchangeability Help

Neil,

Thanks for the response.
I am still confused, not by you but by the measurements I have taken.

My goal is to bolt one of my smaller starters with 9 teeth onto my 74 2L with a 130 tooth flywheel.

As far as I can tell, the measurements from the center support hole to the center of the shaft are the same for all 4 of the starters shown.
Pinion gears are all same diameter and are all 9 tooth gears.
Auto part Automotive super charger part Automotive engine part Engine


I am told the smaller starters are from 85-89 2L PN 0001108024, 3 bolt solenoid.
Auto part Vehicle Tool accessory

Auto part Tool accessory Automotive engine part Transmission part Engine


Large starter on right is PN 0001211987, 2 bolt solenoid (74??)

Large starter on left is PN 0001811110, 3 bolt solenoid.
Auto part Automotive super charger part Automotive engine part Engine


Please note that all of the solenoids have different connections for the ignition wires, some have two, some one.

Auto part Engine


From Paul Spruells site, he describes the ring gears as follows:

130 Tooth, (9.050"id) 72-74 2L

131 Tooth, (9.035"id) 75-89 2L Note 0.015" difference in inside diameter. not sure of the outside diameter but this seems to say the flywheels are not interchangeable. Not sure about this as the 74 had Spica and Spica flywheels continued to 80 or 81.

130 Tooth, (9.948"id) 90-94 2L

So, the basic question is whether the smaller starters will work with a 130 tooth ring gear as a bolt on assembly. Regarding the years and starters I have; I do not trust the years as the PO's have messed with everything on the cars. Only one of the starters had the correct shoulder bolt in the center hole.

My 74 2L Spica flywheel has been lightened and I do not want to ruin the 130 tooth ring gear by trial and error. Is there some definitive test or measurements that can determine this in advance?

I have read Geroge's post on starters but his is directed at interchangeability between smaller engines and earlier models.

Can anyone clear this up?
Thanks in advance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Gary. I'm sorry I don't have anything more specific to add to this thread. I bought an aluminum flywheel and, Peter, the guy who made the flywheel fitted it with a 131 too ring-gear. The "received wisdon" from vendors and a good friend who has forgotten more about Alfa than I'll ever know tell me that a later starter should work. My friend's view is that the new starter will sound different but will work. That comes for lots of experience, btw.

But, does it really work? I can't say because my engine build got stalled for various reasons. So, the vendors I contacted sell these starters, but the from-a-distance issue is whether a starter that sounds different on engagement is working well or not working well. Mechanically, the late stargers are different from earlier one so there would logically be differences in operation. One way to check on what's happening is to use some machinest's blue to look at the mesh pattern between the new old starter. Note that the starter I purchased has the same part # that Classic Alfa OKAlfa parts uses on the starters they sell.

Is your engine out of the car? That would be the best way to check mesh patterns. My plan is to do just that, once my engine is built. Sorry I can't be more helpful here.
 

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Jim,
Engine is out, flywheel with Richard, already lightened.
Gear box mailed to Richard today and I will pick those items up along with head, cams and carbs from him once he has finished the gearbox rebuild and gear lightening.

Plan on taking crank and block to machine shop next week for cleaning, polishing and dimensional verification.

So, I am hoping that I can get a definitive answer before I reassemble.
I do know that the smaller starter is a permanent magnet type and is more efficient and powerful than the older larger ones. The innards are also different so it will sound different. Wes had told me once that you can start an Alfa with a motorcycle battery on the smaller starters.

Glad I am not in a hurry as there have been a couple of puzzlers on my refurbishing.

Hopefully some old timers (More experienced Alfa Gurus) will weigh in on this.
 
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