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The white 1 at motorclassica is the car I knew 40years ago. it looks ok but I believe is must be mostly a replica from the way is used to be in the 70s all cut up & modified. There is talk about it in another thread about how much is replica parts. I don't think 1 car made from 2 can even be registered for road use in Australia. I looked it carefully for long time at motorclasica & I could see it had a later front chassis than the back half.
It sits very strange.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Your comments do bring up some interesting points about the white car at Motor classica.

1. 'I knew 40years ago. it looks ok but I believe is must be mostly a replica from the way is used to be in the 70s all cut up & modified.'

So can a car with a missing body parts, which may include it's body number on the firewall be repaired such that it appears close to as it looked when was originally made ?
Access to steel body work is probably not an issue, as project cars do pop up occasionally for sale. The original grade of aluminum for the panels of the GTA could be an issue. So repairing a GTA with a non original grade of aluminum, say as per the type most of the replica panels offered today, could raise some issues in welding the two different aluminum types together. It could also be an issue as less of the body work is of the original aluminum type.

2. 'I don't think 1 car made from 2 can even be registered for road use in Australia.'

Not sure if 'cut and shut' of 2 cars to make 1 car is still allowed in Australia.

So let's assume the car was reconstructed not using 'cut and shut' technique, but skilled coach building techniques.

I'm also not sure on the rules of the other Australian states or countries, but in South Australia the Motor registration office I was told the rear identifier in the boot lid channel of an Alfa Romeo was not enough to re register the car. Only cars with their unique body number on the firewall could be registered.
So let's assume a used original fire wall and other steel panels were available.

3. In your first point you have raised 'I believe is must be mostly a replica'
Many parts suppliers can sell you parts and even build you a GTA replica, made from say a 1966 GT Sprint body shell and replica engine and replica body panels.

This brings up the topic of 'replicas' and 'evocations' issues. As I mentioned before in another post months ago there are 50 shades of RHD GTA's. Every RHD GTA is different from the other due to their harsh life and some even campaigned to the point of total destruction, just like this car was.

So in putting this car together; can you use the average of what a few GTA's look like and pick an arbitrary point you like? or make it look more like a GTA that had an easy life?

What was the objective of rebuilding this car which was campaigned to the point of total destruction?
What would be the objective of building a GTA replica from say a GT Sprint with a good body?(apart from the less work/cost involved with regards to the body work)

Is it a collection of GTA parts that have no story, like a GTA replica(who's GTA persona started say in 2019)? or part or mostly a replica?
When does a car stop being a replica ... and start being mostly original but with some reproduction parts?
So where are we with definitions ?
30% original 70% reproduction with no body number = Replica?
40% original 60% reproduction with no body number = ?
50% original 50% reproduction with no body number = ?
..
90% original 10% reproduction with a body number = Original
on it goes

World wide the term 'backdating a car' has a history with other makes like Porsche. With Alfa Romeo 105's in the last few years there is plethora of replica parts for GTAs and performance parts that are available so we can select say a 1967 GT Veloce 1600 and back date it to a 1965/66 GTA, which is still FIA eligible as a GTA!.
Notice I'm posing questions to think about.
Like I said before many shades of RHD GTAs as well as many shades of GTA replicas/evocations to come.

Of course the early performance workshops of the 70's in Australia and world wide had for a long time promoted forward dating cars, i.e. 2L parts in say a 1600 GT Veloce, but now we see a turn around to backdating of cars. We will now see an alloy bodied 1600 GT Veloce with a GTA engine gearbox etc and look just like a GTA in many ways.
So I think 'backdating of cars' to GTA specifications will remain part of 105 culture world wide for a while.

Well as the GTA's were heavily modified forward dated, are we now seeing documented examples/attempts at original dating a car to one of it's prior selves(race colours) from it's current forward dated self?, something analogous to backdating a car: both are trying to achieve turning back the clock !
Of course not every car's repair process is documented and is available for public view like say this car. https://www.alfaholics.com/our-cars/completed-builds/1965-fia-app-k-1600-gta-restoration/

As carcare351 seems very familiar with the car in it's last forward dated self (as a wreck) it's understandable that he is confused if he is looking at the same car given the time stamp the car was brought back to and not seeing the repair process we have come to expect!
 

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Hi Steve, Interesting reading your take on an old dilemma. Are you aware of Directory of historic racing cars’ written by Denis Jenkinson and published by Aston Publications Ltd. in 1987.

He addresses this in his Glossary of Terms which I find helpful. Giving a description under headings such as Original, Genuine, Authentic, Resurrection and more.


The GTA being discussed will be described by one of his Terms I expect.

If You don't have it email me at kendgb at aol dot com

Ciao

Ken

BTW I can't see anything on the links provided. I that because I need an instagram account?
 

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Hi Carecar,
You're a bit tough on GTA752545, but I can see your point. While it has had a rough life as a race car, every reasonable effort has been made to restore it back to as it was in 1965. I think you really have to be there to understand the decisions & processes involved.
Steve did bring up some interesting & valid points about percentages of originality etc, & while this is hard to quantify (& it's not my car to say),
what is true about this car is that it was a new genuine RHD GTA rolling off the production line back in 1965.
In order to restore a given model car (as opposed to creating a replica, or even faking one to pass off as genuine), you must first have a genuine car of the model. And this car is certainly that; & it did have both front & rear stamped GTA RHD numbers. This has been a genuine effort to save one of the rarer models of the cars we love & as such should be applauded. At some point in time perhaps the owner will share the full restoration
story, it was a long a hard road to where it is now. Now that another miraculously original RHD GTA (#752611, 7000 miles) is available for reference, a number of the smaller details can be corrected on 752545. :- Did you know the boot floor coverings of a GTA are the same vinyl pattern as Giulietta Ti arm rests??? Neither did I until a couple of weeks ago! Things you learn...
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I guess what Carecar and others are not seeing is a few things that they have become accustom to seeing for GTA's being presented / scrutinized here on Alfabb.
I understand every one is different when it comes to whether they the owner choose to share the repair process (photos at various stages of repair something like what Alfaholics presents) as mentioned before.
Photo's of the numbers/codes on the body.
None of the following has been presented either in great detail by the owner, like the timeline of ownership, events entered through out the car's life as a running car. Photos and entry lists of drivers. Any accidents or modifications and what it looked like modified and as a wreck. Only Carecar has offered oral history, maybe he has photos, has any one asked him?
You don't have to convince me I didn't know the car, you have to convince Carecar who remembers it as a wreck and the GTA experts who need some of the things I mentioned. I'm not saying anything new here just repeating what many GTA experts have asked about cars before.
I have noticed that there is not the same level of scrutiny of this car compared to other cars? So a lack of consistency of scrutiny.
As a suggestion the experts on Alfabb could set up a protocol of how to present a cars history file with photos, a win win for owner and community(and next owner)

Regards Steve
 

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Hi Steve,
Yes I agree that it would be worthwhile for the owner to provide as much of the history & restoration here on this forum to back up
the provenance of this car. Personally I think it is better to have the information out in the wider view even to protect the car. My main concern would be that it is a restoration of genuine GTA & it does not deserve to get muddled among the various 'tributes' & the like. I'm not sure if the owner recognizes this. I know he doesn't participate on this forum, but I will encourage him to do so or give permission to supply more detail.
To be honest I wouldn't describe the owner as a die-hard Alfisti: he has much more interest in his more exotic English/Italian/French cars than the Alfa. This restoration has really been driven by the various Alfisti doing the work & research to accomplish the restoration.
Regards, Vince.
 

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I can't think of too many (any) GTA restorations being documented on this BB in the way that owners of GTs, spiders, etc do. For that matter I do not see many shops documenting here either. If they document at all, they keep it or maybe share with owner. I do not follow Bring a Trailer too much but what I recall seeing there is lots and lots of pictures of the finished product and no offer of during resto photos.

I think not too many owners of GTAs do it themselves but trust it to a shop especially if more than smoothing and paint is required.

What I think is important is that the restoring owner record how he got the car, what changes were made in his stewardship and what he knows of the provenance and other history.

I have been through a restoration of a GTA and as the owner made certain decisions about that, along with the experienced restorer. It was a beat up race car, although not as much as some, and now it is a nice Vintage racer wearing one of it's legitimate race liveries and fewer of the GTA parts than it had in 1965 but consistent with its livery year and the losses that go along with racing. For example it had one numbered engine when it went to Autodelta and a different numbered engine when it left. Nobody would every expect that the race engine she left with survives and likely the other is also lost to race wear and tear.

I am thankful that the owner of 752545 has given us something to look at and admire and question and learn.

Ciao

Ken
 

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I believe in continuous history. Simple as that.

So GTA 752545 is very much GTA 752545. Sure it's had some changes along the way but it is a CAR and that is what happens. But nowhere along the way did another car become GTA 752545, i.e. you can trace the current car easily (?) all the way back to GTA 752545 in all periods.

Otherwise EVERY restored car becomes a replica which is ridiculous. Or heck if I crash my 1750 GTV and it needs an replacement guard, it is now a replica ... BS ... or my original motor lets go and destroys itself, so I replace the block; now it is a replica ... BS. My cars continuous history: 1971 1750 GTV, AR 1456250 (105.45) manufactured on the 25th January 1971 and sold on the 14th April 1971 to XXX Auto from Noumea, New Caledonia ... transported to NZ in DD-MM-YYYY ... (I could list the New Zealand owners) ... eventually was purchased by PSk and restored requiring substantial metal replacement ...

Just like a Ferrari GTO replica, it is actually still #NNNN 330 GT 2+2 and no cutting and ruining of a genuine Ferrari is EVER going to make it into an ACTUAL 250/330GTO. When these cars are displayed at car shows they should be described as 330 GT 2+2's wearing custom body work, not as a GTO ... BUT if you were able to find such a replica and put it back right, you would have a beautiful and nice 330 GT 2+2 again ... with a history, that like a child that has spent time in prison, is not discussed.
Pete
 

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I believe in continuous history. Simple as that.

again ... with a history, that like a child that has spent time in prison, is not discussed.
Pete
Pete you make me laugh.

Ken
 
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