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Discussion Starter #1
Hello - reading some of the information on this topic, can anyone confirm whether on a 67-69 spider verifying the chassis & original engine S/N match is possible or is only the correct model engine that came with the car possible to verify, not necessarily the exact SN one that came with the car. Also, is matching numbers important to the value of the car? These cars are going between 40-75K now, in good condition, I would think it would be? Unfortunately, the official Alfa center of documents in Italy is closed due to Clovid. Thanks, Richard
 

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can anyone confirm whether on a 67-69 spider verifying the chassis & original engine S/N match is possible or is only the correct model engine that came with the car possible to verify, not necessarily the exact SN one that came with the car.
Only that it has the correct model engine, not the exact s/n installed at the factory. Alfa Romeo didn't maintain records to that level of detail.

Also, is matching numbers important to the value of the car?
Since that information isn't available, no. Even the correct model engine isn't so important, though a 105.03 should have a 1600 cc engine, a 105.57 or 105.62 should have a 1750.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Only that it has the correct model engine, not the exact s/n installed at the factory. Alfa Romeo didn't maintain records to that level of detail.



Since that information isn't available, no. Even the correct model engine isn't so important, though a 105.03 should have a 1600 cc engine, a 105.57 or 105.62 should have a 1750.
OK - thanks much for the info. I’m kind of shocked by this. As I mentioned before, these cars are commanding some pretty significant pricing, for good condition & originality, how do you even verify the latter...what does ‘original, numbers matching’ even mean? Thanks again! Richard
 

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In my view, "matching numbers" doesn't mean anything. It is something that came up when Bloomington concours judges could not differentiate between two equally restored Corvettes. It has nothing to do with how much you can enjoy the car. It is also totally artificial, as if you are restoring a 1960s muscle car there are shops that specialize in supplying you with a "date correct" engine block, intake manifold, and other parts and castings, and will re-stamp the "matching" serial number on that block.

Alfa spared us that aggravation by stopping to record engine serial numbers around 1960. Let's leave numbers to bean counters and enjoy the cars.

Have you ever seen a vintage Ferrrari race car such as a GTO or TR advertised as "matching numbers"?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
In my view, "matching numbers" doesn't mean anything. It is something that came up when Bloomington concours judges could not differentiate between two equally restored Corvettes. It has nothing to do with how much you can enjoy the car. It is also totally artificial, as if you are restoring a 1960s muscle car there are shops that specialize in supplying you with a "date correct" engine block, intake manifold, and other parts and castings, and will re-stamp the "matching" serial number on that block.

Alfa spared us that aggravation by stopping to record engine serial numbers around 1960. Let's leave numbers to bean counters and enjoy the cars.

Have you ever seen a vintage Ferrrari race car such as a GTO or TR advertised as "matching numbers"?
thanks Yves, I’m learning all this as I continue my search. Of course I’m surrounded here by Porsche classic enthusiasts & matching #s in this world seems important. Also I’m trying to differentiate between those advertising original & matching & asking a premium for it
 

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It is nice to get what you pay for.

Duetto type number 105.03 1.6 engine type 00536 was made in 1966 and 1967 only. Back then Alfas were often sold and registered one or two years later than their build date. Centro Documentazione can provide build date and original destination.

There were officially no 1968 or 1970 Alfas imported in the US, Alfa skipped these years getting ready preparing US spec cars. But 1- they overstocked 1967 and 1969 cars that they sold during the lapsed years and 2- there are now numerous 1968 and 1970 Alfas in the US that have been imported later from overseas or Canada.

In 1968 and 1969 Alfa made the roundtail Spider in three variations:
1750 Euro spec type number 105.57 1.8 engine type 00548
1750 US spec type number 105.62 1.8 engine type 00551 with Spica injection
1300 Junior Spider type number 105.91 1.3 engine type 00530

At some point in 1970 Alfa changed the Spider body style to square tail, but there are round tails registered and sold as 1970s. The transition point is not clear.

Alfa 4 cylinder blocks from 1960 up to 1994 all look alike and are interchangeable, whether they are 1300 or 2000. At the very least you can check than the first digits of the engine number correspond to the engine type stated above.
 

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I agree engine number/matching is not important for enjoying the car, and we don't have official records from Alfa to match engine number to chassis on most 60/70s alfas.
"Drivers" have more respect in the alfa world perhaps as well, and modifications are/were always common. While it never hurts to have/keep the original engine if you can - it's also refreshing to be liberated from matching numbers taboo. Enjoy it!
That said, it's not hard - depending on qty produced - to align more than just engine type to chassis type. It does not take many "known" original chassis/engine combos to align the factory assembly date/timing and liklihood of an engine being original to the chassis. For 00551 engines installed in S1 and S2 1750 US market cars, I have enough information here to tell you if the engine in your car is a late S1, early S1, early S2 or late S2 for instance. So, if you have a chassis and want to "claim" the engine is original, be aware that while impossible for the market to know (at this point) for absolute certainty if it is - it is possible to know with a high level of certainty if it is not.
You have the best of both worlds with alfa. The ability to restore it to "original", or modify it to desire and thunb your nose at "bean counters". No need to forge blocks to do it either way.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I agree engine number/matching is not important for enjoying the car, and we don't have official records from Alfa to match engine number to chassis on most 60/70s alfas.
"Drivers" have more respect in the alfa world perhaps as well, and modifications are/were always common. While it never hurts to have/keep the original engine if you can - it's also refreshing to be liberated from matching numbers taboo. Enjoy it!
That said, it's not hard - depending on qty produced - to align more than just engine type to chassis type. It does not take many "known" original chassis/engine combos to align the factory assembly date/timing and liklihood of an engine being original to the chassis. For 00551 engines installed in S1 and S2 1750 US market cars, I have enough information here to tell you if the engine in your car is a late S1, early S1, early S2 or late S2 for instance. So, if you have a chassis and want to "claim" the engine is original, be aware that while impossible for the market to know (at this point) for absolute certainty if it is - it is possible to know with a high level of certainty if it is not.
You have the best of both worlds with alfa. The ability to restore it to "original", or modify it to desire and thunb your nose at "bean counters". No need to forge blocks to do it either way.
Thank you very much for your feedback. I have the chassis # of the 10562 1750 that I’m looking at, AR 1481178, I don’t have the engine detail yet, I plan to visit the car next week & will get it. I was obsessed with matching #s because I thought it was important in buying a classic such as this. of course it doesn’t influence the pleasure of driving & owning it but thought it made a difference from a value perspective & at the price these things go for currently, I want to make sure I’m doing things right. But if matching #s doesn’t influence the value, then ok, one less thing to worry about.
Thanks again, Richard
 

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chassis AR1481178 is a 1969 left hand drive USA spider veloce, tipo 105.62
According to Fusi's "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910" the original engine series (00551) to the car would be numbered between 00551-00548 and 00551-02513
 

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chassis AR1481178 is a 1969 left hand drive USA spider veloce, tipo 105.62
According to Fusi's "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910" the original engine series (00551) to the car would be numbered between 00551-00548 and 00551-02513
So the best you can do to achieve "matching numbers" on this car will be to ensure that the engine falls within the range cited in spiderserie4's post.

Failing at that, as long as it has a "1750" engine, it will be pretty good. The 1750 is characterized by a cartridge type - not a spin-on, oil filter. These cars also came with Spica mechanical fuel injection, so if you value originality, that should be present as well (many have been converted to carburetors which isn't correct for a 105.62). Note that the 1969 version of Spica injection was unique; Alfa changed it a bit for the 1971 model year (there were no 1970 model Alfas imported into the US).

It is simple to transplant a later, 2 liter engine into a '69 chassis, so if "matching" is important to you, you'll want to avoid that. A 2 liter is easy to identify: it will have a spin-on filter.
 

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My own personal thing is if I see an ad for an Alfa that extols it’s numbers matching greatness it basically underscores that the seller really has no idea what an Alfa really is. Thus also casts shade on the rest of the car also being hyped up well beyond its true condition.
If it’s a car that is asking top dollar, there is likely on this board someone close by, maybe someone who is in concourse circles that could inspect it with you.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
chassis AR1481178 is a 1969 left hand drive USA spider veloce, tipo 105.62
According to Fusi's "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910" the original engine series (00551) to the car would be numbered between 00551-00548 and 00551-02513
Wow! Ok, thank you very much, this is very helpful - Richard
 

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Discussion Starter #15
My own personal thing is if I see an ad for an Alfa that extols it’s numbers matching greatness it basically underscores that the seller really has no idea what an Alfa really is. Thus also casts shade on the rest of the car also being hyped up well beyond its true condition.
If it’s a car that is asking top dollar, there is likely on this board someone close by, maybe someone who is in concourse circles that could inspect it with you.
I was thinking same thing, amazing how many cars I came across that claim original & several things are off: color, steering wheel, Alfa logos, carbs vs injection, the headlight cowls, etc. Actually, the car I am looking at it doesn’t appear the guy knows what he may have in his hands. He’s not claiming anything other than it’s in excellent shape. He just bought it 7-8 years ago not because he is an Alfa enthusiast he just liked the look of the car. From what he states he’s pampered it, drove it <500 KMs/year, only in dry weather, kept it in a garage, covered, & kept it in good working order but, hasn’t done anything major to it. Still has the Spica on it & everything on it from the pictures seems to match. He’s an elderly gentlemen & now doesn’t drive much at all anymore.
The issue however is he also doesn’t have a lot of history before he purchased it, & this is one of the reasons I’ve been focused on trying to fInd out at least about the engine.
I’m bringing a body specialist with me to inspect it & if it’s in good shape as advertised & engine matches, as described above, & the rest seems to fit the car, then I will have found what I am looking for. I’ll keep you guys posted, I sincerely appreciate all the help & insights,
Richard
 

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With respect to the members who have commented here regarding the engine numbers, I believe AR did keep records of the engine numbers, what is true, is that it is not their policy to divulge that information [ possibly to avoid fraudulent engine numbering? ] , however, they will confirm whether an engine number is original to the vehicle or not. See the email below received from Centro Documentazione in 2018:

"Following your request, we would like to inform you that from our search in the production registers concerning the chassis number you provided, the following information is available:
  • Model
  • Production date
  • Delivery date
  • Market destination
  • Exterior color
The Certificate of Origin, printed on high-quality paper, will be sent to the address you have provided. A preview will be sent to your email address. The cost of this service is 70.00€.
As an alternative, the information could be provided in the text of an e-mail. The cost of this service is 30.00 €.
If you need to know the current engine number, we kindly ask you to send us the engine number you have and we can check whether it’s original or not."

Hope this helps,
Rgds,
Nick.
 

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Fusi book is only a guide. There are mistakes in it.
 

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I find that owners without any documented chassis/motor number match say that it is not important.
Those with such documents feel that it greatly improves the value!!
Here is one way to know if there is a match for your car:
1632640
1632641
 

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If you need to know the current engine number, we kindly ask you to send us the engine number you have and we can check whether it’s original or not."
My understanding is that while this "offer" is presented in general context, these records exist for some years/models - not all, and not 1750 105s.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Went to visit one of Spider 1750’s I have on my list. Have you guys ever seen hairline cracks such as in the picture attached, almost same exact crack on both sides, same area. Is this something we see on this model or does it tell another story? Thanks! Richard


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