Wes, Herb, and Daron brought some interesting wares to the convention. The engines were beautifully detailed (of course) and showed just how far you can go with old Alfa engines. Daron and Wes's headers come in two flavors, a big tube for 2L's and smaller tube headers for 1750's and 1600's. The 2L headers have anti reversion steps built into the header. Racers note: Wes also showed a newly modified SPICA pump which solves high rpm mixture problems.
Speed costs money: how fast can you spend
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Sorry for saying this, but the headers seems to have a bad entry angle
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I'm glad someone qualified to make that comment said that - just what I was thinking... They certainly look the part though - seems odd with all that effort one wouldn't get the entry right?
Would you please explain? My impression was that these headers are an improvement on orthodox practice. I know dyno time was spent during their development. Further, Daron and Wes both know what they are doing.
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I have no doubt that both Daron and Wes know well what they do, I have seen their work and I only can say it seems to be superb. I'm also sure that those headers produces an important increase of performance compared to the standard exhaust manifold.
But as you can see in the attached picture, the flange angle of the exhaust port is near 45º to the port duct. For a better flow the initial portion of the header must follow the duct direction and after be bended to adapt the header to the available space. Maybe Daron and Wes had to sacrifice the ideal design (and a little of power) due to space restrictions.
In any case, the headers have an awesome look.
...but don't like the ignition coils installation over the exhaust in the TS engine
But as you can see in the attached picture, the flange angle of the exhaust port is near 45º to the port duct. For a better flow the initial portion of the header must follow the duct direction and after be bended to adapt the header to the available space. Maybe Daron and Wes had to sacrifice the ideal design (and a little of power) due to space restrictions.
In any case, the headers have an awesome look.
...but don't like the ignition coils installation over the exhaust in the TS engine
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I will have to ask Wes about the intake manifold on the last engine. It's a 155 head with the port geometry coming in from above. Most aftermarket manifolds come in horizontal and screw up the airflow (same concept that the previous posts are saying about the exit geometry on the Nord headers). These intakes appear to have the right intake angle, and go horizontal after the mating surface (or before if you are following the air flow). I will require one of those for my 155 head if it can be machined for injectors.
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Exhaust manifold view can be deceiving. When looking at them on the engine from the exhaust side, they appear to be wrong. But look at them laying on the table and one angle, looking from the front, shows there is a distinct angle that the tube has to the flange. My guess is they did them right, but it is just not easily seen from pictures.
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Yes, I had the same reaction. I was taught that heat and electrical components don't mix well.
accepting this thread as nothing more then dialog by fan of Alfa Romeo I will chime in on the truth of this system. A lot of very qualified people were involved in the design and testing of this system. The people who manufacture the unit (Made in the U.S.A.) have 48 years of custom header designs. They are widely known in the racing community as one of the best designer of headers. They know there business very well. One of the FIRST things address was exhaust angle and minimum impact of CFM evacuation efficiency. Then they calculated volume air input and output. This calculation told us that a minimum of two different header designs were needed to cover most users (nord motors). Look around most suppliers only offer one header fits all. 1600, 1750 and normal 2 liters needed one type. Very hot 1750 and 2 liters needed a different design. As far as exhaust angle, the flow is direct and does not turn unit a minimum of 80cm of direct exit has happened. Stock headers turn under 30cm. Also the single piece flange is welded to the primaries inside and out, The the inside weld is cleaned up to prevent cfm turbulence issues.
Ceramic coated, these are ceramic coated inside and out for two reason. One to reduce engine bay temps. Ceramic coating drops the exhaust temp by approx. 200 degrees. The other reason they are coat on the inside is because exhaust gas exit efficiency improves. That helps H.P. and torque. And yes that has been tested and proved.
Tested, tested and tested. These have been on the dyno and tested against all of them.The data supports the design. Keep in mind these were developed because the motor RPM range has moved up a lot over the last two years. We are now building motors with rev limits at 8500 +. Some headers that look great, go flat at 7000 rpms. With that said most motors don't need a over 7000 rpm header. Never the less was the primary reason for the development. There is youtube video showing these headers at work. List to the motors. When they hit 6200 rpm's the motor just launches to 7400 to 8000 rpm.
Install challenges? No. drop the driver side center link out and they slip right in. ZF steering box cars have to unbolt the motor mount on the driver side to make the install easier but that is it.
These are not for every motor. Bone stock 1600 cars are better off with stock headers. They get better torque results. Bone stock 1750 see a little improvement. But anything above that get really good results.
Ceramic coated, these are ceramic coated inside and out for two reason. One to reduce engine bay temps. Ceramic coating drops the exhaust temp by approx. 200 degrees. The other reason they are coat on the inside is because exhaust gas exit efficiency improves. That helps H.P. and torque. And yes that has been tested and proved.
Tested, tested and tested. These have been on the dyno and tested against all of them.The data supports the design. Keep in mind these were developed because the motor RPM range has moved up a lot over the last two years. We are now building motors with rev limits at 8500 +. Some headers that look great, go flat at 7000 rpms. With that said most motors don't need a over 7000 rpm header. Never the less was the primary reason for the development. There is youtube video showing these headers at work. List to the motors. When they hit 6200 rpm's the motor just launches to 7400 to 8000 rpm.
Install challenges? No. drop the driver side center link out and they slip right in. ZF steering box cars have to unbolt the motor mount on the driver side to make the install easier but that is it.
These are not for every motor. Bone stock 1600 cars are better off with stock headers. They get better torque results. Bone stock 1750 see a little improvement. But anything above that get really good results.
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Not sure what you are trying to say with this, but many people here are more than just fans. There are racers, engineers, designers, etc.
This is the answer most are looking for, that the exit angle is correct. Since you appear to work for them, you have answered the question.
Thanks,
The opening statement merely meant, respecting the opinion and criticism about the design. This web site is alway interesting reading material. Some folks really know there stuff and not wanting to come off as a know-it-all, was that was meant. And it should be noted this system could not be built if it were not for the fact that a Designer, two engineers, and two racers were involved in the development. BTW, the trial and error period we as a collective (the seven on the design team) took nine months. There is some much that goes in to a design. For example the final expansion chamber area at the ball and socket (the end of the exhaust) was a last minute test before production. But you start out with basic set ups and build from there. I originally assumed a 4-2-1 (most common type) was going to be done. But we quickly realized a tri Y was way better. Now that is a good topic. Pros and cons to types of headers. Take care.
Never liked their solution with the coils. Plenty of room on the bulkhead (say on the inlet side, low down?) and once a coil is installed it never needs attention ...
Anyway I'm just watching not doing
.Pete
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Comments / questions:
Where did this show-and-tell take place?
Is it possible that the mounting plate for the coils is also a heat shield? If so, I'd assume a very good heat shield. Or...they were just mounted on the headers for this 'show'?
The diameter of the TS header makes the Nord ones look like spaghetti.
Very cool sinister looking painted (powder coated?) black Spica pump.
Where did this show-and-tell take place?
Is it possible that the mounting plate for the coils is also a heat shield? If so, I'd assume a very good heat shield. Or...they were just mounted on the headers for this 'show'?
The diameter of the TS header makes the Nord ones look like spaghetti.
Very cool sinister looking painted (powder coated?) black Spica pump.
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Hi biba. What you are look at is a extremely hot 75 two liter that produced in the area of 230h.p. On pump gas ( confirmed on two dyno systems). A 155 head on a Nord two liter that will also be a 230 h.p. on pump gas. And finally a Gta twin plug head on a race prepped motor. These motors were on display at the national convention in Kentucky a few months ago.
As far as the coil pack system, the coil pack manufacture approved the location because we created a heat shield under it and put the coils on isolation mounts. The reason we elected to do this is because we could make the plug wires very short. Shorter leads lower the resistance. With that said, we are now developing a mount that will be hidden under the carbs. We've been ask a lot " why not inside the car"? Well two reasons why, 50,000 volts per lead x 8, and frequency interference. And mostly, if someone reached under the dash and touched it discharge could kill them.
The black powder coating on the spica pump is to identify that it is very, very high performance unit. We are now developing new dementions on the spica to match the monster motor performance. The super trick spica pump matched to the TWM trottle bodies is going to be very cool
As far as the coil pack system, the coil pack manufacture approved the location because we created a heat shield under it and put the coils on isolation mounts. The reason we elected to do this is because we could make the plug wires very short. Shorter leads lower the resistance. With that said, we are now developing a mount that will be hidden under the carbs. We've been ask a lot " why not inside the car"? Well two reasons why, 50,000 volts per lead x 8, and frequency interference. And mostly, if someone reached under the dash and touched it discharge could kill them.
The black powder coating on the spica pump is to identify that it is very, very high performance unit. We are now developing new dementions on the spica to match the monster motor performance. The super trick spica pump matched to the TWM trottle bodies is going to be very cool
OP - mainly.. Thanks for posting this disturbingly arousing engine porn.
It compels me to wonder if anyone could convince Jim Steck/AutoComponenti to send out Bonnie's Salt Flat motor for the next convention if it's not being prep'd for speed record runs.
I don't see any activity on Jim's AC web page, and haven't heard any Bonneville updates of late.
Bonnie's (clearly "specialized-application" ) headers:
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It compels me to wonder if anyone could convince Jim Steck/AutoComponenti to send out Bonnie's Salt Flat motor for the next convention if it's not being prep'd for speed record runs.
I don't see any activity on Jim's AC web page, and haven't heard any Bonneville updates of late.
Bonnie's (clearly "specialized-application"
) headers:
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