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I still hate Datsun 510's to this day and the fact that the GTV's had to carry 75lbs extra weight in the under 2.5 liter TransAm series. That last race of that last season was a micocasm of the Alfa legend.

History of the Trans-AM 2.5 Challenge
 

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PSk
What are you on mate?
Its my car & I will do what I like with it.
I keep all the original parts so I can sell to either type of owner when Im finished.
The standard car was good, the modified one suits me better, thats why I did it.
Regards to All
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 · (Edited)
And Pete, adding power, tightening the suspension, and installing more sticky tires doesn't stop some of us from exploring the limits of our cars' performance. It just means the limits are higher than they would be for a stock car.
Exactly :), where is the fun in that when we now have 10 cops per mile and the volvo brigade limiting our fun. Thus by improving your car the limits and where the fun starts is now higher and thus not obtainable on a public road ... car is boringly on rails on every corner :(. Driver input has been reduced. But yes I'm sure you are enjoying yourselves too :).

Anyway the main reason for this thread was the engine changes, IMO some are removing art and replacing with a mass produced print.
Pete
 

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I take it you're referring to non-Alfa engine conversions? Lot's of people shove 2L Alfa engines into their originally equipped 1300, 1600, 1750 engined Alfas - no history lost there? Personally - I don't have much opinion on the subject - to each his own, but I do get what you're saying.
Yes.

Pete
PSk
What are you on mate?
Its my car & I will do what I like with it.
I keep all the original parts so I can sell to either type of owner when Im finished.
The standard car was good, the modified one suits me better, thats why I did it.
Regards to All
Does it sound, from the above quotes, that he is bagging your conversion? He is obviously referring to mass produced "Jap-crap" (now putting on flameproof vest!) in our wonderful little cars! For me, nothing beats the Hot Nord/Twin Spark in a 105 (my old man went from 1600 to 2litre in his, but it still keeps its soul!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 · (Edited)
I'm fundamentally in agreement with you here, I think where we differ is that I'm modifying things to make the car handle/go/stop better (in my opinion) because I have this strange desire to tinker and "improve" wherever I can.

You (please don't let me put words in you mouth here) on the other hand would rather drive the car the way Alfa intended when it rolled off the production line, because you feel part of the experience is driving around some of the cars idiosyncrasies?

To be honest I never really had an understanding of why people restored cars to totally original. This thread has given me a better understanding of some of the reasons a person would be compelled to do so. Interesting....

Leon
Leon,

Great post, I don't always explain things well but you and I are on the same page.

Leon I also love to tinker, and I did that with my motor racing for 10 years but when I bought my 1750 I looked around and it is nearly impossible to find a 100% dead standard GTV anymore. This is ofcourse because they respond so well to modifications and most people that buy them are speed demons :D ... but to me the challenge to restore to 100% original is much higher and harder than the easy path of '**** don't like that part anyway', lets improvise and modify.

But yes tinkering is fun ... I say to all the tinkers, go racing!
Pete
 

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but look at that 2000 that some bloke put an SR20 engine in down here in Australia; its now just a Silvia in a gorgeous body, but its lost its soul!
This realy is a stupid statement! How can you call it a Silvia when the chassis, suspension, steering, wheel base, track and weight distribution is still an Alfa Romeo?

If I stuck my Alfa V6 in my Silvia, would it then be an Alfa??? I think not.

A car is not defined entirely by it's engine.

And as for your "jap crap" statement......... pull your head in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
This realy is a stupid statement! How can you call it a Silvia when the chassis, suspension, steering, wheel base, track and weight distribution is still an Alfa Romeo?

If I stuck my Alfa V6 in my Silvia, would it then be an Alfa??? I think not.

A car is not defined entirely by it's engine.

And as for your "jap crap" statement......... pull your head in.
Duk,

With all due respect it no longer is an Alfa Romeo in my book. But yes have to agree that legally it is as the chassis is the car.

The thing I do not understand is this:
  • The Silvia would have a better chassis (you guys have been debating with me for ages that newer equals better).
  • The Silvia would have better brakes.
  • The Silva would have better suspension and thus handling.
  • The Silvia would have better steering, being rack and pinion (although I love the Alfa 105 steering thanks).
The only advantage of the Alfa is the looks, and maybe lighter. Thus this engine conversion was done simply because he did not like the Silvia looks?

All that work to take an Alfa Romeo a step backwards (remember hp is not everything with classic cars), when the Silvia is a good and respected car ...

Instead of ruining an Alfa Romeo, why not build a replica (of an Alfa Romeo sports racing car if you like) with the Silvia motor, etc. Be even lighter and thus faster and require even more engineering input (ie. more tinkering)!~!
Pete
ps: The Silvia engine is only better because it is newer, but I really think some people need to think deeply about if they really are 'historic/classic' car people ... it's not for everybody :).
 

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If you had a Nissan SR20DET engine in an Alfa Romeo, then I would think of it as an Alfa Romeo with an SR20DET in it, not a Nissan Silvia.
Hence my statement of the engine not entirely defining the car. Yes it's a key ingrediant, but 1 car doesn't magically become another because of an engine conversion.

Hell, my Silvia didn't become an R32 Skyline GTSt because I stuck the engine from a Skyline in it. Even if they do share the same rear suspension design, the fact that the Silvia is shorter and has a differant front suspension design just makes it a Silvia with a Skyline engine.

Maybe the bloke did the conversion because he likes his Alfa on the whole, but prefers the nature of a late model, fuel injected turbo engine. In that case, I see the aluminium block Nissan engine as an excellent choice as an Alfa engine replacement. It helps to keep the front/rear weight distribution very similar to help maintain a very large degree of original chassis balance/behaviour.

I do actually understand your statements of maintaining originality for originality sake, too.
But I also get a tad frustrated with wanting to keep a car in a state of design defficiancey (and that isn't just engines) for the sake of originality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 · (Edited)
But I also get a tad frustrated with wanting to keep a car in a state of design defficiancey (and that isn't just engines) for the sake of originality.
I understand this comment completely and that is why I will never own another Sud or a Alfetta GTV with the poorly designed original handbrake caliper. But there is no design defficiancey with an Alfa Romeo engine!

Heck once upon a time (I say this because the company has closed it's doors IMO) as far as I am concerned Alfa Romeo made the best engines of any company period.

If you look back in history, especially motorsport history, Alfa Romeo engines embarrassed many other companies, including Ferrari, Porsche, you name it. Heck the 2 litre v8 T33's used to beat the supposedly mightly Ferrari P3's and P4's, of 3.3 and 4 litre capacity respectively.

Yes the Nord engine is now old, but the car and company did not deserve to be embarrassed by having it replaced ... fuel inject, add variable valve timing, plus a turbo if you like but keep the soul intact.

Where is the respect for the proudest brand in automotive history?. The true car enthusiasts brand.
Pete
 

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Yes the Nord engine is now old, but the car and company did not deserve to be embarrassed by having it replaced ... fuel inject, add variable valve timing, plus a turbo if you like but keep the soul intact.
Car requirements change. Keeping the mechanical noise of the Nord engine at bay (not just the intake and exhaust noise) would have been very difficult to achieve. That in turn could have made it hard to keep overal vehicle noise down in drive-by noise tests.
If Alfa had developed a 16v, continuously varriable valve timing head with a 2 stage (or even variable length) inlet manifold and stuck it on the Nord block, could it still be called a Nord engine?

Where is the respect for the proudest brand in automotive history?. The true car enthusiasts brand.
Pete
Maybe a touch lost when Alfa Romeo forgot to respect itself by remaining true to those beliefs you have in them........ (no spite/sarcasm/ or anything else intended)
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Maybe a touch lost when Alfa Romeo forgot to respect itself by remaining true to those beliefs you have in them........ (no spite/sarcasm/ or anything else intended)
Yes no argument from me here. That is why I say the company is dead.

I still say, trying to make an old car do what a new car does makes no sense to me ... just buy the new car if these things rock your boat so much. I myself love to drive the old cars and enjoy that purer experience. One day I can see myself owning a REAL vintage car, infact I would love to own and restore a 40's Alfa Romeo ... have to go serious barn hunting ;).

I also always find it funny when people build replicas, and in the process make the car much faster and better than the original ... what are they replicating? ... very little. A good replica should look, drive, etc. exactly as the original so the person who paid for it, gets that original experience.
Pete
 

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Great thread!!

I feel that engine conversions are a matter of personal taste but also feel that they are usually performed to show off ones mechanical talents as much as the end results.

In regards to fast cars on the street, you can't enjoy the full power of a fast car on the streets without risking a great deal.

I find myself board sometimes as I drive my Spider on the street even on the country roads with little traffic, I always have to worry about marbles, bicyclist, wild life and cops and the times I do get on it I usually think about the what if's.

For me if it wasn't for the track use I be happy with a stock S-4 Spider.
 

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This realy is a stupid statement! How can you call it a Silvia when the chassis, suspension, steering, wheel base, track and weight distribution is still an Alfa Romeo?

If I stuck my Alfa V6 in my Silvia, would it then be an Alfa??? I think not.

A car is not defined entirely by it's engine.

And as for your "jap crap" statement......... pull your head in.
My mention of it being a Silvia is trying to make the point the PSk made that there is no point putting it in a 105, go buy a Silvia... What you are forgetting here is Alfas dont need alot of power to do what they do, ie be fun, entertaining and quick, nimble cars... Most cars arent, but most Alfas are, thats what made them so special over other cars of their time... Look, you can do whatever the hell tickles your fancy, but considering what Alfa stood for (no arguing about how it conducts itself now), swapping such a beautiful engine for some Jap engine (crap because thats what it is in an Alfa, just like a Nord in a Silvia, Euro trash IMHO) is plain blasphemy!

Get over defending Japanese cars and their engines, no one is questions how good or bad they are, just clearly pointing out you are destroying the car by changing its engine (and on that note, personally a 2.5 V6 in a 105 is doing the same thing...)
 

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I do actually understand your statements of maintaining originality for originality sake, too.
But I also get a tad frustrated with wanting to keep a car in a state of design defficiancey (and that isn't just engines) for the sake of originality.
Do what you want with whatever car you want, however you want, but just remember the reasons why you bought the car in the first place... Getting a 105 (and many other Alfas alike), and changing every little so called "deficiency" in relation to a modern car defeats the purpose of owning it... You dont buy one because it looks cute (maybe you would though), but rather the reputation it has forged for itself through its driving character. Sure, converting it to a GTA replica is wrecking its originality, but keeps its character to a degree (pushing it?) unlike popping some wooshy washy SR20, or whatever you want in it...
 

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Do what you want with whatever car you want, however you want, but just remember the reasons why you bought the car in the first place...
I bought my 75 V6 because after learning a few things, finally owning and having access to some very useful tools and equipment, I wanted to make a drivers car an even better drivers car.
You dont buy one because it looks cute (maybe you would though)
That's an amusing little bracketted comment, are you calling me a poser or something???

And as for my defending of Japanese cars. My intentions are only ever to try and provide a contrast, as has been my contribution to this thread, an attempt at providing a contrasting opinion to the thread topic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
Another point worth raising.

Many change things because there is something they dislike about their car, ie. handling not up to their standards, etc. BUT how many have bothered to rebuild the suspension COMPLETELY back to original settings FIRST, ie: new springs but standard rate, new shocks, all new bushes everywhere, complete 4 wheel alignment, before deciding that Alfa Romeo cannot design cars (even though they were raved about when new and won more races than any other manufacturer!).

I bet if we did this we would find that the car all original actually handles pretty **** good!!

Instead we are modifying because the car is tired and simply needs maintenance. We then INCORRECTLY believe our modifications made a massive improvement, when it really was related to the fact that it now has new bushes, new shocks, etc.

My car when finished will be standard, yes but it will be like a brand new car without a rusty and thus flexi chassis. It will be extremely interesting to FINALLY have a completely original car to compare. Even a 1 owner garage queen that has never been restored will need massive maintenance to drive like new ... it will be tired and not a fair representative.
Pete
ps: I also cannot wait to compare lap times at say Eastern Creek thus finding out where my dead standard little 1750 slots in ... will be interesting :).
 

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I bought my 75 V6 because after learning a few things, finally owning and having access to some very useful tools and equipment, I wanted to make a drivers car an even better drivers car. That's an amusing little bracketted comment, are you calling me a poser or something???

And as for my defending of Japanese cars. My intentions are only ever to try and provide a contrast, as has been my contribution to this thread, an attempt at providing a contrasting opinion to the thread topic.
No no no, dont think Im having a go at you about the looks thing! You was meant to describe people in general, not "you" as in Duk :) Look Im modding my 75, no problems, but there is a difference between changing my engine and putting in Koni reds; one changes what the car is about and the other just makes it a better car for what I bought it for. Even with regards to my engine that Im building, I just want to keep it NA and make sure my little 75 keeps her spirit!

As for the Japanese cars, thats fine, and I understand what you are trying to do because I do it all the time. Just remember Im not questioning Japanese cars (owned heaps, great things), but their engines in an Alfa are a bit iffy. I mean, look at the blokes that put EJ20s in 33s... Just get a rex!
 

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No no no, dont think Im having a go at you about the looks thing! You was meant to describe people in general, not "you" as in Duk :) Look Im modding my 75, no problems, but there is a difference between changing my engine and putting in Koni reds; one changes what the car is about and the other just makes it a better car for what I bought it for. Even with regards to my engine that Im building, I just want to keep it NA and make sure my little 75 keeps her spirit!

As for the Japanese cars, thats fine, and I understand what you are trying to do because I do it all the time. Just remember Im not questioning Japanese cars (owned heaps, great things), but their engines in an Alfa are a bit iffy. I mean, look at the blokes that put EJ20s in 33s... Just get a rex!
Yeah all is good. Peace :cool:. Now it is rather off topic, but what engine did you settle on for your 75 after your http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1987-1989/99580-75-turbo-vs-75-v6-3-litre.html thread?
 

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My heart is telling me to just go NA with the 2.5 and aim for around 200-210hp at the engine, but my head cant get parts twin turbos ala Callaway (Doesnt seem like they did much work to the cars to get about the same power as what Id aim for NA, prob alot cheaper though!)... I guess it all comes down to money though lmao!
 

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Actually Callaway did a lot of work to get the 230/250 they got plus it's 50 state emissions compliant in the states. Also it had a full Alfa U.S.A. warranty, this all done 25 years ago. Pretty impressive when looking back at it.
 
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