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I sort of agree with Pete, but I'm not a good enough driver. If you consider it "fun" to take a 60mph corner with the back end hanging out, keep your stock set up. I prefer taking the 60 mph corner stuck to the road thinking that maybe if I took it at 80 the back end might hang out or the front end may plow. When I drove my 1969 GTV with the stock 165 HR 14 XAS tires I found it a little "twitchy". It was really twitchy when I drove it in the winter on dry roads with the studded winter tires on the back :). I've not found the limit of my current setup, and so far I'm not really looking for it.
 

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PSK you seem to be in a gray area...part of which i was once in....looking at EFI, power brakes/abs..and anything other than carbs, points, and manual brakes as taking the "fun" out of cars....

the GTV6 changed me of that....i now respect EFI....still much rather have MANUAL brakes..which is why the lloyd ended up with tilton MC's( 1 front 1 rear 1 clutch)

its not about how the car was built or should be built..but what makes a car entertaining to drive....ya know ive NEVER used the radio in the gtv6 except when parked!!!...the song of the engine is enuf.....a "better" car does not make a worse driver..it allows a driver to push themselves further.....well within reason.....some of the new tranys are taking the driver out of it..same with the whole electronic steering....i have to agree traction control/launch control are just BS and deffinatly take the skill away from the driver...ABS on the other hand..im on the fence...but ive never been behind ABS that made me feel safe..in fact i trust it about as much as the drums on my 58 ford


you seem to now be focused more on "new" features more so than swapping good stuff into old cars....id agree with you on putting ABS into a pre 80's car as just being flat out WRONG! as its not with the "hotrod" way of things...EFI was once in that same list of wrong things to do...
 

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What I cannot understand, even with modern technology understandably improving things, is why you would want to remove an engine that has all this to be replaced by nothing but a mass produced production line number that has achieved nothing, nothing at all but move a few boring road cars around. Road cars that have not tested themselves on the Targa Floria, or Laguna Seca, road cars that have not upheld the very image of their company ... all just units sold to keep accountants happy.
Like most things in life, I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here. It all depends on the car, the circumstances, the owner, etc.

Personally, I have a ton of respect for those who do interesting swaps, fabrication, etc. My hats off to them.

Wrt swapping engines for pure 'reliability' reasons, there are some circumstances where it might make sense. Alfa engines aren't the cheapest to rebuild, faced with a $4k+ potential bill for a rebuild, I might be temped to put something 'simpler' in if I didn't know how to fix things myself.

I do love reading about the interesting engine swaps, the fabrication involved, etc. Alfa or not, it's good stuff in my opinion.

Are all of your Alfas bone stock? A lot of us make 'improvements' to them over time, more modern ignition systems, fuel delivery, better suspension components, so if somebody can swap in a 'better' motor (or one better suited to their purposes), why not? It's all a matter of degree..

As John Hertzman always says, enjoy yours!

bs
 

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Gentlemen,

This is how I look at it.

First car 1966 Duetto, as it left the factory.
High School girl friend, huggin and kissin. Thought I was going fast.

Second Alfa 1986 Spider, wanted the 20 years of refinement. Very reliable.
First wife, no more chasing around. Good stuff, always available.

Third Alfa 1986 GTV6 even more technology and more power. Wonderful road car.
Girl friend, fun, enjoyable, motor always running, but...

Fourth Alfa 1974 Spider, V6 3.0 conversion. All systems up graded for street/track performance.
Second wife, temperamental, emotional, when in tune …perfection, more than I can ask for!

I will start a new detailed thread on my V6 conversion when I have made some real progress.

Keep the revs up,
Charlie
Serpent Autosport
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I believe that there are some engines that just don't belong in an Alfa Romeo. Pushrod American, Australian or English rubbish (no matter how powerful, compact (like a Windsor), relatively light or apparently simple) just doesn't belong in an Alfa, full stop!

Someone once sugested to my uncle that he put a Holden (Buick) v6 into his GTV6............. AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!:mad:

Then there are those engines worthy of concidering. The Nissan SR20DET is probably the most obvious especially because of the similarities with the Alfa 4s. The Nissan VQ35DE, 350Z engine. A nice Mazda 13B turbo engine. Or maybe a spare Ferrari V8 ;).
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
Alright, now I am confused :confused:. How can a car that is more idiot proof by having more grip (and typically more predictable handling chacteristics, regardless of the actual tyres and that's not just understeer)
More grip does not equate necessarily to more predictable handling characteristics, thus it is NOT more idiot proof. Here is why: New driver gets into their near new car with too much grip and thus drives the car like it is always going to go around the corner. Because the car has never yet slid due to their wonderful sticky tyres they believe incorrectly that the car will always go around any corner, and thus are not learning correct driving technics.

A car that is low on grip will have slid a little bit and they will have learnt an appreciation that cars indeed are not like microwaves and simply always do as they are told. Also low grip cars usually slide slowly and predictably.

The end result of the modern car with too much grip is shown constantly on TV in Australia with these massive accidents and unfortunately hurt passengers, etc. When they do loose control they are going too fast and it all happens too fast for the inexperienced driver ... think Subaru WRX for example :(.
ABS - I don't care how fantastic you think you are behind the wheel, even race car drivers make mistakes, panic and lock wheels
When ABS came out the number of accidents INCREASED. People, not you and I because we read about cars, believe that ABS results in a car that stops quicker and thus they follower closer and the end result is a crash. Instead we should be all following atleast that 3 seconds behind, which is a very, very large gap and thus when a drama happens plenty of time to react.
Traction control (some people just don't have a clue about driving, especially in the wet) not be a safer car:confused::confused::confused:
And thus is taking control of the car away completely a good way to teach people ... [email protected]!. You don't teach a kid how to ride a pushbike by never letting him or her actually ride a push bike do you.

The modern car manufacturer is NOT interested in driver enjoyment anymore at all, they are only interested in how many gadgets they can add to their car because then they can charge more.

Also by us morons supporting this trend, the greenies and over scared people are moving more and more to taking control of our car off us completely. This is what they want ... and fnck me but nobody or no computer is going to take one of my biggest enjoyments in my life away from me. I love driving!!
What is wrong with variable valve timing? Alfa Romeo are credited as being the first manufacturer to release it to the world. Honda and Mitsubishi in particular have produced some the raciest NA engines this side of Ferrari, certainly engines with higher power outputs/litre than the best Alfa Romeo engined Alfa.
Yeah it is not that bad, but I love driving cars with full racing engines as I love the peakiness, it is completely addictive. The rush when the torque builds and the engine just goes nuts ... variable valve timing takes some of the fun away. My Sud that I raced was crazy, when it came on cam and while it really was not very good from that point of view ... **** it was a laugh a second.
Next you'll be saying that carbies and mechanical advanced distributors are better and more reliable than electronic engine management systems.
No, not at all, my Toyota has all that and I appreciate the fact that it starts every time and runs perfectly all the time ... but it also is one of the most boring motors I have ever driven, 4 valve and twin overhead cam and all.

In the end I want cars that demand from ME ... yes my GTV doesn't demand too much but it's a good balance and a fine engine, great gearbox, great brakes and nice enough chassis for a competent road car. I bet that if we drove from Sydney to Melbourne ... my GTV will do the trip pretty much in the same time as a GTV with say a 350Z motor ... for 2 reasons, cops and we are NOT racing :).

BTW: Somebody asked if I have ever modified a car?.

Yes I raced a 1976 Alfa Sud for 8 years (170 hp, etc.), and I build a club car that was a spaceframed chassis thing (512 kg and 200 hp :), which won the championship). The Sud was a bloody fast road car in the end, but it was not really that much faster on the ROAD than it was with just 105 hp ... other than say passing potential. But I modified it for the race track.

My Toyota family car needed new shocks, and in investigating this issue I found that the bump stops had been beaten out completely, and I always thought it was too soft in the front for idea handling ... being a round town car. Thus I increased the front spring rate and now it is a much better open road car.

But I would never change the motor in a car, that is it's soul IMO ... just change car. And I'm a big time Alfa Romeo nutter, so no other manufacturer will ever sit in any Alfa Romeo that I have anything to do with. Sacreligious!, but I can understand putting Alfa motors in other things ... but then I have to ask why not just buy the Alfa in the first place? ;).

BTW: I'm also a motor cyclist ... and my bike does not have ABS, traction control or anything, I keep myself alive, nobody else does. A very raw experience.
Pete
ps: My parents used to run a car repair garage and thus I've seen many engine conversions ... most poorly done :(. Plus I don't agree with the cost argument, as re-engine-ing a car costs mucho more than most think, hence why most are poorly done as short cuts are taken. Cheaper to buy a manual and rebuild your own Alfa motor :).
 

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TS swap: How does that float your boat?

I agree with you about keeping the heritage of the Nord in a Nord powered car. However, we know it is quite limited. I think a TS swap is a great solution...nord sound, modern day EFI, lowered emissions, more power, better fuel economy...ITB's are an option if one must have that carb sound.

Anyhow, that's the only swap I would even consider on an Alfa...maybe a 24V into my Milano too!

Agree with you on the safety points brought up. I've flogged a few Subarus, and they really do take you to ridiculous speeds without embedding any sense of fear - not a good thing.

However, that same Subaru is going to do a lot better in the hands of a n00b when a tractor trailer (lorry) jack knifes in front of the driver. Overall, these all must be safer cars than anything we're driving for fun.
 

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More grip does not equate necessarily to more predictable handling characteristics, thus it is NOT more idiot proof. Here is why: New driver gets into their near new car with too much grip and thus drives the car like it is always going to go around the corner. Because the car has never yet slid due to their wonderful sticky tyres they believe incorrectly that the car will always go around any corner, and thus are not learning correct driving technics.[/i]
A fare point, but not realy a fault of new(er) cars. More a fault of driver training and attitudes of blase' drivers.


The end result of the modern car with too much grip is shown constantly on TV in Australia with these massive accidents and unfortunately hurt passengers, etc. When they do loose control they are going too fast and it all happens too fast for the inexperienced driver ... think Subaru WRX for example.[/i]
But there are plenty of people who think the laws of physics some how magically change because they have an all wheel drive car. All wheel drive doesn't provide as much a handling improvement as much as it provides an accelleration traction improvement.
My sister use to be a Paramedic, 1 of her workmates was stunned when they attended a 4WD (off road type) roll over. She (my sisters workmate)thought that being a 4WD meant that it couldn't roll over.......... Such is the ignorance out there.

When ABS came out the number of accidents INCREASED. People, not you and I because we read about cars, believe that ABS results in a car that stops quicker and thus they follower closer and the end result is a crash. Instead we should be all following atleast that 3 seconds behind, which is a very, very large gap and thus when a drama happens plenty of time to react.[/i]
Again, and I know you would agree, attitude and ignorance. I'm sure that most car enthusiasts know that ABS is more of a panic assist, not a physics defyer. Braking distances aren't magically shorter because of ABS, in fact they can sometimes be slightly longer than a skilled driver, but we can all poo our pants at some times in our lives (I don't own a car with ABS, BTW);)

Also by us morons supporting this trend, the greenies and over scared people are moving more and more to taking control of our car off us completely. This is what they want ... and fnck me but nobody or no computer is going to take one of my biggest enjoyments in my life away from me. I love driving!!.[/i]
Very true, I have a particular hatered of the over dramatised Anti-hoon laws. Not because I condone hooning behaviour (in the traditional media sence), but because it has never acknowledged driver training defficiancies and I also see it as a major means for government justification of excessive speed limit enforcements. "Speed cammera's save lives." Please, I think not!!!

And, believe it or not, I do actually know where you are coming from in regard to some of the 'Big Brother' cars. But my MR2 and Nissan Silvia are still petrol heads cars, as are many others out there like the WRX. They may not have all bean forged in the heat of battle like the 105's were, but some of them have great history in the forrest and gravel roads of the world. Others just have some good sensible engineering under their skin :cool:

Yes the F40 is still the ultimate supercar, but in the mean time, more modest car will have to suffice for me to get my driving thrills (where I can) :cool:
 

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Personally, when it comes to Alfas, the engine is the heart and soul of the car, without a doubt. We buy them for the passion, the sound, the rawness... putting another engine in it (from another manufacturer) is defeating the point of owning an Alfa (assuming you are buying it for the passion and not just because you like the look of it)... As for this notion of Jap engines in Alfas; powerful, clinical, efficient, reliable, yep sure are, soul and passion? no way! Only a rotor comes close, but they only belong in Mazdas :)
 

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Personally, when it comes to Alfas, the engine is the heart and soul of the car, without a doubt. We buy them for the passion, the sound, the rawness... putting another engine in it (from another manufacturer) is defeating the point of owning an Alfa (assuming you are buying it for the passion and not just because you like the look of it)... As for this notion of Jap engines in Alfas; powerful, clinical, efficient, reliable, yep sure are, soul and passion? no way! Only a rotor comes close, but they only belong in Mazdas :)
How about the Skyline GTR RB26DETT? A very spirited engine. Designed for competition. The Honda NSX engine? Deffinately ruffled Ferrari's feathers. The Mitsubishi 4G63 engine. Used for 20 odd years with much(!!!) competition history. Describing the Toyota 4AGE engines as soulless or passionless over on the Toyota forum would have me linched.

Passion and soul of a mechanical device is more about perception and association with the efforts of those who build or develop it. Every mechanical device has characteristics, and there for could be said to have character.
 

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I suggest the guys who are against non Alfa engines in Alfa's Google GIOCATTOLO ......
A Giocattolo with a GM LS7 would be Heaven on wheels.

What about the 8C Competizione Alfa/Ferrari/Maserati "hybrid." ?

If Alfa are building crap GM block based engines at the moment why not drop in a Maserati or Ferrari engine?

John
 

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How about the Skyline GTR RB26DETT? A very spirited engine. Designed for competition. The Honda NSX engine? Deffinately ruffled Ferrari's feathers. The Mitsubishi 4G63 engine. Used for 20 odd years with much(!!!) competition history. Describing the Toyota 4AGE engines as soulless or passionless over on the Toyota forum would have me linched.

Passion and soul of a mechanical device is more about perception and association with the efforts of those who build or develop it. Every mechanical device has characteristics, and there for could be said to have character.
the rb26 is quite spirited, but in a GTR alone, not in an Alfa. NSX engine? What, the one that made barely 240kw? The design of the NSX as a complete, usable, cheap (reletively) package was what scared the big boys, not its performance (Type was getting there, but not quite)... 4G63? Did I doubt its motorsport credentials? Hardly, yet I can tell you it never stirred my soul like my V6 does (and I had one in a Cordia that when very very quick)... 4AGE? Now we're talking, revvy, great package, massive tuning potential, yet still, the noise it makes just doesnt do it for me (20V excluded of course)... Yeah, it is about perception, but like said before, grins per mile buddy, and your senses are what need to be stimulated, not a timewatch...
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I really don't see why you don't want to improve on something you acknowledge is a weakness.

I'm all for keeping Alfas original, but to suggest that you would be less of a driver if you improved on a known weak point makes no sense to me at all.

But hey at the end of the day its you car not mine!
As I was riding to work I thought again about this thread and in particular this post and it deserves are reply.

First or all 81Sprint, we are discussing Alfa Romeos, from a performance or handling point of view their weaknesses are SMALL. Yes the 105 series rear roll centre is too high but compared to 95% of other 60's and 70's cars their handling capabilities are very good.

Remember my car is 100% a road car and I am sure that I will be able to push the car hard enough to cause that required grin ... without having to lower the rear roll centre, or even change spring rates.

Thus again we are talking about modifying cars that other than build quality are miles better than other cars of their period. Ofcourse modern cars are better ... but as I've said before (if not in this thread, others) the more you modify a car the more it becomes like a newer car and similar. I go out of my way not to drive newish cars because I like to stay awake behind the wheel ... although lately I have not been sleeping well so hmmm maybe I should rethink that ;).

Did you really go out of your way to purchase a interesting Alfa Romeo to modify it so that it drives like every other boring newish car? Quirks are what make mechanical items interesting ... :). And again their isn't many in the motor/gearbox or handling department anyway!, they are good performers straight out of the factory.
Pete
 

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PSK i think the 2 of us are on the same track...on differnt planes....i picked alfa for its rareity and funess to drive..and CANT part with my gtv6 now..improve it ohh hell yes..TS transaxle, lowwered a little, stiffer spings with better shocks and what i belive to be S cams in the 2.5 with ansa free flow WITHOUT cats...still running on stock size tires...for now(but i will retain the stock wheels ON THE CAR!!)

i picked alfa for the lloyd for the sheer fact that the car needed updated to become fun...i "could" have picked any newwer car to do the swap from but picked alfa on the fun factor alone...i see the alfa transaxle platform as "perfection" in its own right/class be it 4cyl, 2.5/3.0 or even a 24v....

only time i see a swap of parts being "out of place" is when someone takes more than just the engine or suspension from a new car...like taking and installing airbags or traction control on something made before the mid 80's..engines, trans, even suspensions i see as simply upgrades with varying degree of difficulty of installation ....its the "luxury" stupid items i see as stupidly out of place...heated seats, air bags, abs, traction control, etc etc etc
 

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PSK i think the 2 of us are on the same track...on differnt planes....i picked alfa for its rareity and funess to drive..and CANT part with my gtv6 now..improve it ohh hell yes..TS transaxle, lowwered a little, stiffer spings with better shocks and what i belive to be S cams in the 2.5 with ansa free flow WITHOUT cats...still running on stock size tires...for now(but i will retain the stock wheels ON THE CAR!!)

i picked alfa for the lloyd for the sheer fact that the car needed updated to become fun...i "could" have picked any newwer car to do the swap from but picked alfa on the fun factor alone...i see the alfa transaxle platform as "perfection" in its own right/class be it 4cyl, 2.5/3.0 or even a 24v....

only time i see a swap of parts being "out of place" is when someone takes more than just the engine or suspension from a new car...like taking and installing airbags or traction control on something made before the mid 80's..engines, trans, even suspensions i see as simply upgrades with varying degree of difficulty of installation ....its the "luxury" stupid items i see as stupidly out of place...heated seats, air bags, abs, traction control, etc etc etc
This is the same sort of line I want to take with my 75, but the key here is we are putting stuff from other Alfa's that were made with the same ideas; we havent gone from our V6 to a Gen 3, or a transaxle to a BMW 6 speed, just kept the same old Alfa parts from when the car was made to compliment its design. No offence, but look at that 2000 that some bloke put an SR20 engine in down here in Australia; its now just a Silvia in a gorgeous body, but its lost its soul! If you want to go turbo, atleast turbo the NORD and keep it Alfa!
 

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I can add only one word to this conversation: ScuderiaNonOriginale.

Okay, I cheated. That's three words, but they cover a whole lot of us who love our Alfas, especially when we've been able to make them fit our personalities just a little better.

I remember going to Laguna Seca when Miata's were new. About 50 of them showed up and got to park in a prime spot. They were so new, there were practically no mods on any of them and walking along the rows of cars was boring. The only thing different was color.

Fortunately, people all over the world have been customizing their cars since the first vehicles rolled out of the converted buggy factories. It's a time-honored tradition. Now Miata's can be seen with all sorts of mods, and that makes looking at them ... almost interesting enough to attract my attention.

Likewise, 50 GTVs, all perfectly original, would get pretty old after the third or fourth car. But 50 GTVs, each with a change here and there to meet a particular owner's taste, could keep me busy all day.

And Pete, adding power, tightening the suspension, and installing more sticky tires doesn't stop some of us from exploring the limits of our cars' performance. It just means the limits are higher than they would be for a stock car.
 

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As I was riding to work I thought again about this thread and in particular this post and it deserves are reply.

First or all 81Sprint, we are discussing Alfa Romeos, from a performance or handling point of view their weaknesses are SMALL. Yes the 105 series rear roll centre is too high but compared to 95% of other 60's and 70's cars their handling capabilities are very good.

Remember my car is 100% a road car and I am sure that I will be able to push the car hard enough to cause that required grin ... without having to lower the rear roll centre, or even change spring rates.


Thus again we are talking about modifying cars that other than build quality are miles better than other cars of their period. Ofcourse modern cars are better ... but as I've said before (if not in this thread, others) the more you modify a car the more it becomes like a newer car and similar. I go out of my way not to drive newish cars because I like to stay awake behind the wheel ... although lately I have not been sleeping well so hmmm maybe I should rethink that ;).

Did you really go out of your way to purchase a interesting Alfa Romeo to modify it so that it drives like every other boring newish car? Quirks are what make mechanical items interesting ... :). And again their isn't many in the motor/gearbox or handling department anyway!, they are good performers straight out of the factory.
Pete
I'm fundamentally in agreement with you here, I think where we differ is that I'm modifying things to make the car handle/go/stop better (in my opinion) because I have this strange desire to tinker and "improve" wherever I can.

You (please don't let me put words in you mouth here) on the other hand would rather drive the car the way Alfa intended when it rolled off the production line, because you feel part of the experience is driving around some of the cars idiosyncrasies?

To be honest I never really had an understanding of why people restored cars to totally original. This thread has given me a better understanding of some of the reasons a person would be compelled to do so. Interesting....

Leon
 
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