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Nice rant ;).

However, history and nostalgia can come a very distant second when you are staring down a very large bill to only make your car a little bit faster. I know that's not exactly what you are saying but it's still a relivant (IMO) concideration.

Also, every car manufacturer had to start at some time in motorsport. Would you call Mazda, Toyota and Honda any less passionate about motorsport than Alfa Romeo? They started late compared to Alfa too, but Mazda were all but kicked out of LeMans with their 787B, Honda dominated the turbo era of F1 and Toyota have achieved in many other forms of racing.

Restoration or improvement and modification? There is always room for improvement, but there is no real room when restoring ;)

Car manufacturing is a business first and formost. Ferrari and Alfa Romeo were broke befor Fiat, the builder of more often than not, mundane cars, took over. Motorsport is deffinately a passion for enthusiasts but is still realy a business. I doupt the product development that occurs in motorsport would be doing the rounds in production cars in this day and age, as it did in the past.

BTW, there are many legondary engines out there. And plenty come from car manufactures with a lot less exadurated arm waving 'passion'.

End rant :p
 

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:D
And also if say Toyotas relatively modern motor racing history pushes your button, why buy a 60's/70's OLD Alfa Romeo ... ?[/i]
Both manufacturers have produced some fantastic cars that I would love to own, but I still can't own anything that is standard (always room to improve). Maybe when I get older, things will stay as intended :cool:.

Personally I'm into 60's and early 70's cars, since then we have simply added electronics ...[/i]
And variable valve timing, multistage inlet manifolds, massive improvements in turbo charger and supercharger design, effective all wheel drive systems, huge improvements in suspension and chassis design......

I will 1 day have a Montreal, taken out to 3ltrs and with a nice programable engine management system running the show. A nice combination off classic and modern :cool:
 

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Again surely most buy a classic car to relive, enjoy the cars from the better period.
Are you saying that there aren't any good, enthusiastic cars in this day and age?

If you want to play "I'm the best hotter upper", why pick a classic ... I guess this same topic was debated back in the 50's when people were hotting up Model T Fords ;)
Surely even a classic car can be improved? Even using current day tyres, by your logic, would be a modification, but also an improvement.
 

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Just for the record, of all the cars I've seen and read about over the years (15+), 1 of the cars that I most remember was in Fast 4's and Rotaries (many, many moons ago). It was a Benninca built 105 GTV(green) with a blow thru, twin Delorto turbo, intercooled, 2 ltr. The article also hinted at many other technically minor modifications, but to me, the whole car was very near perfect! A great combination of improved performance, tweaked handling and a smoothing of minor design flaws (aerodynamics that caused excess wind noise and chassis/body improvements) that produced a superb car that was so in keeping with the (non-electronic) era that it will remain in the memory banks for ever :D

On that note. Those that can't or won't reccognise modern performance cars for what they are, need to remember that back when Alfa Romeo were resetting some of those bench marks, I'll bet my left (smelly, old) steel capped work boot that there were people saying: "Back in the 'good old days', befor this new fangled 'Alfa Romero' thingy..........."

Times change, and they always will ;)
 

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LOL :D! I remember giving you a bit of a ribbing over at GTV6.com for what I thought was a waste of a good Alfa, but after you said it was destined for certain death, I was a little (actually a lot) less put off.

And now having seen more of your work, I realy am impressed :D! Such a huge effort (I'd never even heard of a Lloyd, let alone seen 1). Age old hot rodding at it's best. And so unique and usable (when it's completed). Just no 350s under the bonnet/hood........... ;)
 

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Modern cars have got it all wrong with their fat sticky tyres, abs, traction control, variable valve timing so any idiot can get the most out of the motor ... yes better appliances, but not better or safer cars.
Alright, now I am confused :confused:. How can a car that is more idiot proof by having more grip (and typically more predictable handling chacteristics, regardless of the actual tyres and that's not just understeer), ABS - I don't care how fantastic you think you are behind the wheel, even race car drivers make mistakes, panic and lock wheels, and traction control (some people just don't have a clue about driving, especially in the wet) not be a safer car:confused::confused::confused:

What is wrong with variable valve timing? Alfa Romeo are credited as being the first manufacturer to release it to the world. Honda and Mitsubishi in particular have produced some the raciest NA engines this side of Ferrari, certainly engines with higher power outputs/litre than the best Alfa Romeo engined Alfa.

Next you'll be saying that carbies and mechanical advanced distributors are better and more reliable than electronic engine management systems.

"I remeber back when cars use to have cable operated drum brakes. You never were quite sure if you were going to stop or not, but they made you feel like you were alive........... or about to die........":p

Is your glass half empty or half full?
 

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I believe that there are some engines that just don't belong in an Alfa Romeo. Pushrod American, Australian or English rubbish (no matter how powerful, compact (like a Windsor), relatively light or apparently simple) just doesn't belong in an Alfa, full stop!

Someone once sugested to my uncle that he put a Holden (Buick) v6 into his GTV6............. AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!:mad:

Then there are those engines worthy of concidering. The Nissan SR20DET is probably the most obvious especially because of the similarities with the Alfa 4s. The Nissan VQ35DE, 350Z engine. A nice Mazda 13B turbo engine. Or maybe a spare Ferrari V8 ;).
 

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More grip does not equate necessarily to more predictable handling characteristics, thus it is NOT more idiot proof. Here is why: New driver gets into their near new car with too much grip and thus drives the car like it is always going to go around the corner. Because the car has never yet slid due to their wonderful sticky tyres they believe incorrectly that the car will always go around any corner, and thus are not learning correct driving technics.[/i]
A fare point, but not realy a fault of new(er) cars. More a fault of driver training and attitudes of blase' drivers.


The end result of the modern car with too much grip is shown constantly on TV in Australia with these massive accidents and unfortunately hurt passengers, etc. When they do loose control they are going too fast and it all happens too fast for the inexperienced driver ... think Subaru WRX for example.[/i]
But there are plenty of people who think the laws of physics some how magically change because they have an all wheel drive car. All wheel drive doesn't provide as much a handling improvement as much as it provides an accelleration traction improvement.
My sister use to be a Paramedic, 1 of her workmates was stunned when they attended a 4WD (off road type) roll over. She (my sisters workmate)thought that being a 4WD meant that it couldn't roll over.......... Such is the ignorance out there.

When ABS came out the number of accidents INCREASED. People, not you and I because we read about cars, believe that ABS results in a car that stops quicker and thus they follower closer and the end result is a crash. Instead we should be all following atleast that 3 seconds behind, which is a very, very large gap and thus when a drama happens plenty of time to react.[/i]
Again, and I know you would agree, attitude and ignorance. I'm sure that most car enthusiasts know that ABS is more of a panic assist, not a physics defyer. Braking distances aren't magically shorter because of ABS, in fact they can sometimes be slightly longer than a skilled driver, but we can all poo our pants at some times in our lives (I don't own a car with ABS, BTW);)

Also by us morons supporting this trend, the greenies and over scared people are moving more and more to taking control of our car off us completely. This is what they want ... and fnck me but nobody or no computer is going to take one of my biggest enjoyments in my life away from me. I love driving!!.[/i]
Very true, I have a particular hatered of the over dramatised Anti-hoon laws. Not because I condone hooning behaviour (in the traditional media sence), but because it has never acknowledged driver training defficiancies and I also see it as a major means for government justification of excessive speed limit enforcements. "Speed cammera's save lives." Please, I think not!!!

And, believe it or not, I do actually know where you are coming from in regard to some of the 'Big Brother' cars. But my MR2 and Nissan Silvia are still petrol heads cars, as are many others out there like the WRX. They may not have all bean forged in the heat of battle like the 105's were, but some of them have great history in the forrest and gravel roads of the world. Others just have some good sensible engineering under their skin :cool:

Yes the F40 is still the ultimate supercar, but in the mean time, more modest car will have to suffice for me to get my driving thrills (where I can) :cool:
 

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Personally, when it comes to Alfas, the engine is the heart and soul of the car, without a doubt. We buy them for the passion, the sound, the rawness... putting another engine in it (from another manufacturer) is defeating the point of owning an Alfa (assuming you are buying it for the passion and not just because you like the look of it)... As for this notion of Jap engines in Alfas; powerful, clinical, efficient, reliable, yep sure are, soul and passion? no way! Only a rotor comes close, but they only belong in Mazdas :)
How about the Skyline GTR RB26DETT? A very spirited engine. Designed for competition. The Honda NSX engine? Deffinately ruffled Ferrari's feathers. The Mitsubishi 4G63 engine. Used for 20 odd years with much(!!!) competition history. Describing the Toyota 4AGE engines as soulless or passionless over on the Toyota forum would have me linched.

Passion and soul of a mechanical device is more about perception and association with the efforts of those who build or develop it. Every mechanical device has characteristics, and there for could be said to have character.
 

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but look at that 2000 that some bloke put an SR20 engine in down here in Australia; its now just a Silvia in a gorgeous body, but its lost its soul!
This realy is a stupid statement! How can you call it a Silvia when the chassis, suspension, steering, wheel base, track and weight distribution is still an Alfa Romeo?

If I stuck my Alfa V6 in my Silvia, would it then be an Alfa??? I think not.

A car is not defined entirely by it's engine.

And as for your "jap crap" statement......... pull your head in.
 

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If you had a Nissan SR20DET engine in an Alfa Romeo, then I would think of it as an Alfa Romeo with an SR20DET in it, not a Nissan Silvia.
Hence my statement of the engine not entirely defining the car. Yes it's a key ingrediant, but 1 car doesn't magically become another because of an engine conversion.

Hell, my Silvia didn't become an R32 Skyline GTSt because I stuck the engine from a Skyline in it. Even if they do share the same rear suspension design, the fact that the Silvia is shorter and has a differant front suspension design just makes it a Silvia with a Skyline engine.

Maybe the bloke did the conversion because he likes his Alfa on the whole, but prefers the nature of a late model, fuel injected turbo engine. In that case, I see the aluminium block Nissan engine as an excellent choice as an Alfa engine replacement. It helps to keep the front/rear weight distribution very similar to help maintain a very large degree of original chassis balance/behaviour.

I do actually understand your statements of maintaining originality for originality sake, too.
But I also get a tad frustrated with wanting to keep a car in a state of design defficiancey (and that isn't just engines) for the sake of originality.
 

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Yes the Nord engine is now old, but the car and company did not deserve to be embarrassed by having it replaced ... fuel inject, add variable valve timing, plus a turbo if you like but keep the soul intact.
Car requirements change. Keeping the mechanical noise of the Nord engine at bay (not just the intake and exhaust noise) would have been very difficult to achieve. That in turn could have made it hard to keep overal vehicle noise down in drive-by noise tests.
If Alfa had developed a 16v, continuously varriable valve timing head with a 2 stage (or even variable length) inlet manifold and stuck it on the Nord block, could it still be called a Nord engine?

Where is the respect for the proudest brand in automotive history?. The true car enthusiasts brand.
Pete
Maybe a touch lost when Alfa Romeo forgot to respect itself by remaining true to those beliefs you have in them........ (no spite/sarcasm/ or anything else intended)
 

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Do what you want with whatever car you want, however you want, but just remember the reasons why you bought the car in the first place...
I bought my 75 V6 because after learning a few things, finally owning and having access to some very useful tools and equipment, I wanted to make a drivers car an even better drivers car.
You dont buy one because it looks cute (maybe you would though)
That's an amusing little bracketted comment, are you calling me a poser or something???

And as for my defending of Japanese cars. My intentions are only ever to try and provide a contrast, as has been my contribution to this thread, an attempt at providing a contrasting opinion to the thread topic.
 

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No no no, dont think Im having a go at you about the looks thing! You was meant to describe people in general, not "you" as in Duk :) Look Im modding my 75, no problems, but there is a difference between changing my engine and putting in Koni reds; one changes what the car is about and the other just makes it a better car for what I bought it for. Even with regards to my engine that Im building, I just want to keep it NA and make sure my little 75 keeps her spirit!

As for the Japanese cars, thats fine, and I understand what you are trying to do because I do it all the time. Just remember Im not questioning Japanese cars (owned heaps, great things), but their engines in an Alfa are a bit iffy. I mean, look at the blokes that put EJ20s in 33s... Just get a rex!
Yeah all is good. Peace :cool:. Now it is rather off topic, but what engine did you settle on for your 75 after your http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1987-1989/99580-75-turbo-vs-75-v6-3-litre.html thread?
 

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Engine conversions are like modification work in general, rather personal in preferance.
I always believe that a conversion should keep to the original design criteria of the car. Shoving a small or big block yank engine into an Alfa is an abomination. It's just to against the grain of ballance and finness.
But as Buzzed as hinted, a Rotor Motor would really suit the Alfa's original design criteria and would be much better suited engine in the capable Alfa chassis than some wayward (standard) RX2/3/4 (my opinion ;))
 
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