[Odin]

Hi guys,
I've been reading many of your threads, thanks to all, for the information.
But with some things, I can't agree. Here are some people fighting, for originality of cars, cause, they are earning money with them, others for the pure love of these cars. Isn't it crazy?
Since the 60. there were reproductions of old cars. First the started with Bugattis, than Alfas, Maseratis, Mercedes, Ferraris etc. From around 500 racing Ferraris, there are still missing, maybe 10.
England has the biggest racing car manufactory, cause they raced, modified and reproduced cars, for historic racing. You can build today, a new Bentley, you even get FIA papers for it. Rodney Felton, was one of the biggest Alfa collectors, but there are doubts, that his cars have ever seen the factory. Today are existing more than 3 times racing Bugattis, you can find around 50 Mercedes SSK and so on. I saw people with the book from Mr. de Boer, looking for cars, that were disappeared and recreating them, cause with his work, he made it easier, for the Crooks. David Piper a well known racing driver, recreated several Ferraris, how many cars came from Pierre Bardinon, Corrado Cuppelini etc. Albert Obrist, had a tremendous Ferrari Collection, all cars in perfect condition, with everything new. Are they still original? Most of the Tipo 33, of Peter Kauss, were recreated in Germany.

...and I think its good. Without all this people, we would never see this cars again. Locked up in private collections. No more historic racing, only massproduced cars.
Racing was all the time very expensive. It costs a lot to all the italien makes, to sell there cars, cause they were very expensive. Only a few people had really the money. There was no market and to many cars.
Today its changed, there are lots of people, who have the money and its chic to do historic racing, expositions and rallyes Even Hedgefounds, are investing money in old cars. But there are not enough of them. Try to buy today a Fiat based sportscar. They can participade in the MM and for this, they are really expensive.

The problem is, for real car lovers and most of us, we don't have the money to buy one. We can only dream, remember the old days and collect pictures.
Some could buy continuation cars and if you have money, you could race them.
I remember 25 Years ago, there was no Alfa TZ-1 for sale in Europe. I tried to find an SZ, but there was none. My first real Ferrari SWB, I saw in 82, some were in Italy and some in England and the rest of Europe.
I lived around the corner of Wolfgang Seidel, a famous Ferrari driver, I never saw a car of him
I think its better today, there are most of the historic cars, you can see, hear and touch them. Some are 100 % fakes, some only 85 %, maybe some are real, but its hard to believe.
For me its sad to see, the condition, of the last remaining Alfa 412, or the 8C 2900 in the Muhlhouse museum, its sad to see, that some cars, we never will see again, cause they are hidden in private collections. For me its sad to see, that they splitted up the Rosso-Bianco Collection. Maybe they should allthough sell the Louvre art collection. Many collectors, will be happy, but its sad for humanity.

So, if you could race with fake Bugattis, Bentleys, Mercedes, Ferraris, Mc Larens, Lolas, Ford GT40s and so on, why not with an Alfa Romeo???

Let the car dealers fight for originality, cause they want to earn more money and money corrupted all.
I'm glad to see, the 8C 2900 B #412.021 again, but somebody will tell me something is real, apart the chassisnumber?

Lets save and honour the history of cars, but let enjoy us around the world, that they are still going strong.

Greetings

Jörg

 

[PSk]

So I guess you are a company that makes replicas?

Sorry there is a big difference in trying to restore a car based on a few original components and 80% is long missing, which is what you are talking about with the very old Alfa Romeos and Bugattis, etc. to somebody buying a 60's Ferrari 2+2 and cutting it up to make a SWB or whatever.

Those older cars are restorations, because if you cannot find original parts you have to remake them ... but we do NOT need to replicate T33's, TZ's and 60's Ferraris because they still survive.

And also when restoring a 105 series Alfa Romeo ... restoring it as original as possible will mean in 50 years time the next owners will NOT have to replicate because its all there correct as it should be.

Just think, if those old Alfa Romeo/Bugatti/etc. owners were more interested in historic cars, as we are today, many would have survived in far better condition, but naturally because the old car movement had not even started they could not care less and used and abused them. Understandable because "we" had been only making cars for 40 years or so, now we really have a reason to look back and find the history of car making interesting, back then we didn't.

Thus yes great to read your opinion, but that is all it is and others can have theirs too ... but please don't request that I go around respecting replica makers. And I do not respect the crash and smash version of historic racing that currently the rich English/European people play in. They are not old car enthusiasts but people with over inflated egos that think that their driving is more important than the old car, that has long since finished its real racing. Yes race the cars but winning is most definitely not important, the car is the star, NOT the driver!

Best
Pete

 

[77SudTi]

I agree with points on both sides of this discussion. I do not like to hear of people re-making cars from the past, especially when it is so hard for people to tell the difference from a real one and a re-creation and someone ends up getting ripped off. Thats the problem with the world today, we are all driven by $$$ in our bank accounts and being moral or fair when money is changing hands rarely enters rational thought. Enter the re-production of these cars - many people do not build them only to be faithful reproductions of motoring history but also as a way of reaping the benefits when it is sold, a sad state of affairs. As for the snobs who go out and race the original cars as their wallet is the same size as their egos, is just as tragic. Perhaps the only room for the re-production cars is for the snobs so they can fight it out on the track and reproduction parts can be replaced with reproduction parts...not real parts replaced with re-produced parts...But on the other hand, without the snobs we would never get to see what the by-gone eras were like on the race track. I'm sure many, many people will disagree - Just my Opinion.

 

[Odin]

Recreation?

Hello guys,
I'm not in the car business, I only fell in love with old cars. Nothing more.
29 Years ago, I bought my first Alfa, 1750 GTV and still dream of it. Till now, I compare all the cars, which I drove, with my Alfa.
I don't race cars, cause I'm not a racingdriver. I like to watch races and old cars in general.
But the egotrips of most people made me sick. From exibition, to races. We are talking about racingcars, which were often crashed, modified and rebuilt.
There are only a few, which were never crashed, cause they never raced. So they have a pedigree, but not a history.
If you go today, with a original restorated car to Pebble Beach, they never will invite you again.
My point is, I really like original cars, their history and the people, who drove it, but I everytime modified my Alfas, to have a better driving pleasure and I will do it in the future.
Today, the most highly valuable cars, are mostly fakes. I'm not talking about 105 Alfas. There are reproductions around the world. If you say, its a difference, between a 85 % reproduction, or a 100 %.
For my information, Autodelta dismanteled most of their cars, cause nobody wanted them. Many people bought, after closing Autodelta, the parts and recreated, like Giordanengo, who catched up original parts, new Tipo 33, with original parts. So what's the difference?
Would you destroy Feltons Alfas??
I think its important, to tell the truth, no fairytales about history. Thats the problem, of the dealers, they want to make you believe, the importance of some cars, to sell them more expensive.
And at last, there were all the time fakes, so a guy could replicate 40 years ago a complete car, so why not now. Why someone, who has money could drive the Mille Miglia in a new Bentley and others not???

Greetings

Jörg

 

[dretceterini]

I have no problem with replicars, as long as they are properly identified as such. The problem is that there are some dealers trying to pass off modern cars using some period parts as real cars.

 

[PSk]

For my information, Autodelta dismanteled most of their cars, cause nobody wanted them. Many people bought, after closing Autodelta, the parts and recreated, like Giordanengo, who catched up original parts, new Tipo 33, with original parts. So what's the difference?

Putting together original parts does not make the resulting car a replica, but an original.

All cars are an assembly of many pieces, thus if you get an original chassis and install in it all original pieces, the resulting car is 100% real and legit.

Replicas are when somebody MAKES a brand new car that never existed before, and I do not have a problem with that in general, except when it is portrayed as something worthy which it isn't (ie. copying something is 1000 times easier than designing something new and original), and most importantly when an original old car is sacrificed to make this replica, ie. a 250 GTO Ferrari from a 250GT 2+2, or a GTA from a 1300 GT Junior.

If you want to make a replica, go and purchase a GM or Ford something that is made in the millions and use that as the basis ... cause nobody will miss it.
Pete

 

[Odin]

Putting together original parts does not make the resulting car a replica, but an original.

All cars are an assembly of many pieces, thus if you get an original chassis and install in it all original pieces, the resulting car is 100% real and legit.

Replicas are when somebody MAKES a brand new car that never existed before, and I do not have a problem with that in general, except when it is portrayed as something worthy which it isn't (ie. copying something is 1000 times easier than designing something new and original), and most importantly when an original old car is sacrificed to make this replica, ie. a 250 GTO Ferrari from a 250GT 2+2, or a GTA from a 1300 GT Junior.

If you want to make a replica, go and purchase a GM or Ford something that is made in the millions and use that as the basis ... cause nobody will miss it.
Pete

But isn't it funny, a GTO Replica is even more expensive, than a GTE.
Could we be shure, that all GTOs are real?
The only thing, if someone, would offer me a brand new Giulia Super, I would buy it instantly, cause I have connections with this car. Its for me the Alfa, I never will forget.
TZs are nice cars, Tipo 33s, all the prewar Cars, but I don't dream about. If I think, with the cars of my youth, I still can't sleep.

Jörg

 

[AlfaTango1]

I don't have much of an issue with period upgrades, like GT to GTAM if cars are for personal use and or for racing. I do have an issue with cars that are constructed for sale as an TZ or TZ2 just because they have had phoney aluminum or fibre work put to a chassis and engine. The main problem is people representing these cars as correct and original. There are crooks and thieves everywhere so even if an honest person races a replica of , say a GTAM when it leaves his or her hands the next owner may miss represent it and it will ruin the legitimate market.

 

[Odin]

Thats true

I don't have much of an issue with period upgrades, like GT to GTAM if cars are for personal use and or for racing. I do have an issue with cars that are constructed for sale as an TZ or TZ2 just because they have had phoney aluminum or fibre work put to a chassis and engine. The main problem is people representing these cars as correct and original. There are crooks and thieves everywhere so even if an honest person races a replica of , say a GTAM when it leaves his or her hands the next owner may miss represent it and it will ruin the legitimate market.

Hi,
I think you are right. If I would upgrate a car, I would do it, cause I'd like it more that way, but not to sell it like a real one.
The strange thing is, that people, who really have money, do this, not for enjoying this cars, only to earn more money. Rodney Felton, made some cars, but he drove them, he was accepted in all the major events and drove the hell out of the cars. It was a pleasure, to see him driving. But most of the rest, enjos only the money. I thank David Pipier, for his cars, cause it was the first time I saw Ferrari P cars racing. He gives everybody a good show, that people, who never saw this cars in action in their times, could see them now. I think John de Boer did a great job about old cars information, but they will be everytime people, who will **** his work, to claim more money for fake cars. I use the chassis information of Mr. Olzyk, cause I have so many pics of cars, to ordenate them a little bit, I thank him for that, but nothing more.
I found one car here in Chile, which I upgrated, years ago, for driving pleasure. I don't want to part with it, maybe in 30 years, when I'm to old for driving, or my cigarret consum, will do it earlier, but it will be the next generation of car dealers, or car historians, to show, that they will be more honest.
We all, around the world have gouvermental problems, with old cars, the pollution etc. How many years, we will be able, to enjoy them any more?
Maybe only the rare cars will survive this madness.

Jörg

 

[iicarJohn]

Knowledge versus Ignorance

If there are those who think that promoting ignorance is more desirable than promoting knowledge, then I will have to disagree. There are risks in promoting either. And by attempting to show one, there is risk of showing the other. Which would you rather be promoting, even at the risk of showing the other? For those who are more timid and take the head-in-the-sand approach, I will state simply that you are actually promoting ignorance.

I am among those who are upset at the possibility that my work has inspired someone to try to utilize a number that seemed to have been "lost" in their "bitsa special". I knew that there was this possibility when I prepared and distributed the results of my work. There were actually a number of intentional omissions from the listings when it seemed appropriate. Some of the omissions were by request of certain owners, former owners and even certain car builders/manufacturers who led me believe that they were setting something of a "trap" for anyone who might attempt to utilize a certain number. In each case that seemed questionable, I thought about what was the appropriate information to share. Despite a certain amount of care, there were errors that slipped through because I simply do not know it all. But, I can tell you that I know a lot more now than I did then. I believe we all know more than we used to, despite the large amount of ignorance that continues to be shown (and sometimes even promoted?) by certain individuals who really should know better by now.

I am hopeful that part of what we know and take for granted is partly because I have shared what I did in 1994 and what I've shared since then. I have been able to share because others have shared with me. The whole point was to let everyone know a bit of what was known, both "good" and "bad" without labeling any of it as one or the other. I knew that we would not all agree on what was "good" or "bad" but I thought it would be obvious that everyone had something to offer to the overall study. In that regard, I did not get the response that I hoped for, but I received some information that was completely unexpected. And certain doors opened and I learned how to get more. Some of the people we've grown to respect and disrepect have made offers but I've refused to sell the files from which the 1994 edition was derived. Almost all of the files have grown considerably since.

As "Odin" noted, not that I necessarily understand the intended meaning of everything that he has stated, some of the most desirable cars have been created and recreated and replicated for many years. It did not begin in the 1960's or 1970's or 1980's and the many confusions were not always created solely outside the "factories" that we like to consider somehow sacrosanct. The confusions created by so-called replicating and number re-use was not actually "made easier" by my lists. Those who were serious about such work were already doing their own research and doing what they were doing regardless of my lists. And the problem certainly did not begin after August of 1994, when the Italian Car Registry was published.

So, if there are those who are upset by what has appeared in the past in the one and only edition of The Italian Car Registry, then be prepared to be very upset by the next edition(s). Unfortunately, there will also be some errors and not all will be typos or errors merely of inclusion or exclusion. The errors will be the most upsetting thing to me.

Best regards.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

 

[Odin]

John,
please don't misunderstand my bad english. I studied only 5 years, some 30 years ago at school.
I have a tremendous respect of your work and most people are greatful, of what you did. When your work was publisht in 1994, I just arrived in Chile, so I was not informed, about its existance. Years later, two, internationally well knowned Carfinders, came to me, with your book, searching something. So I had only a short look at it and I have the great desiree, to buy me one, if you will publish it again.
My intention was, starting this thread, to calm down a little bit, the mood of discussing cars. Most of us are ignorants, in this field, but, we are all trying, to put more gas in the fire.
I respect, the opinions, of persons, from which I could learn and I learned a lot, but I'm shure, I will never stop learning.
My interests, are in general old cars, mostly Pre-War racingcars, but this fighting for nothing, makes me thick.
Unfortunaly, people in this Forum, who really have something to tell, from which we all could learn, only react to our threads and I saw it in general, there are only a few people intrested in historic cars.
Regards
Jörg

 

[hansgta]

Most of the Tipo 33, of Peter Kauss, were recreated in Germany.
Jörg

You should stop smoking drugs ! Simon Kindston is going to be very upset by your post !

 

[AR58SprintV]

Gentilemen,
1. I appreciate John deBoer's list and try to update my copy as evidence continues to present itself. Dear John, an update edition? reserve me a copy!
2. I have seen many excellent copys of parts of cars really up close, and their craftsmanship, while current (even digital), can be excellent...or servicable...or not very good... or junk. This particularly applies to coachwork but may be found anywhere. Any 'continuation' is a modern car made up of spares, not a period automobile.
3. I'm mixed about copycars being vintage raced or rallied: I have seen David in Florence on the street where he belongs (a copy) and inside where he is safe (but not contextual). The same for the horses atop St.Mark's in Venice (copys) and the originals out of public view in storage in very poor condition. I've had my life enriched by copys of long dead singers, but nothing beats a live performance.
4. There will always be some persons who will learn to distinguish a copy as part of their passionate expertise (knowledge) in a narrow field and others who will look to the portfolio value as the final arbiter and who will attack a percieved assault on their value.
5. Experts DO NOT agree, get used to it, they defend their opinions even as they learn. Some (More) copys will become accepted as time goes on...

My two cents,
Cheers,
Laurence

 

[hansgta]

For my information, Autodelta dismanteled most of their cars, cause nobody wanted them. Many people bought, after closing Autodelta, the parts and recreated, like Giordanengo, who catched up original parts, new Tipo 33, with original parts. So what's the difference?

Jörg

Wrong, Giordanengo bought a real 33 at coys auction 10 years ago then duplicate the parts. Autodelta DID NOT dismanteled their cars.

Are you on your way to show us sooooooon a tipo 33 rebuilt with his supposed original parts ? stop making fakes, you waste your time

 

[Pat Braden]

Shouldn't We Be More Tolerant?

If tolerance means that we should turn away as others are producing replicars or fakes and purporting them as the genuine car, the answer is NO!!

Pat and another recognized Alfa author, who I'm not going to name, agree on this point without issue. Neither of them have a problem with me taking all of the parts I have and building a "fake" Giulia spider that never existed before on factory records, obviously because it was never made, but put together with assorted collected spares. It's for my personal use and enjoyment. The problem arises when I want to sell this car...if I do not disclose that this car never existed and is not original, they would both have more than issue with me. But as long as it is properly disclosed and not purported to be something that it is not, there is not fraud involved.

What I've described above is NOT a restoration because there was no original chassis, engine, glass etc. because I've taken misc. parts from various cars and made a new car with them. There was no starting basis. Stamping the firewall with whatever engine is put in the car does not make it a "real" or authentic car. It will always be a fraud and should be known as such.

The problem is that there are those out there who are not honest and take great pleasure in "sneaking" a fraud through. Most of the time at some point they are discovered, but not always before some innocent person loses money on one of them. That is one of the real important factors in auction reports and historians who know the cars and recognize the frauds, no matter how well disguised. The last significant Alfa fraud that I'm aware of occurred at Amelia Island in the early 2000s: "The purported 1961 Alfa Romeo Sprint Zagato (SZ) that was sold at auction for $81,000. Neither the car’s serial number nor its construction proved authentic to experts. Most importantly, there was no authenticating paperwork, the absence of which should have set off alarms. The car was later auctioned as an acknowledged fraud for about $18,500. (Braden, personal communication)"

 

[dretceterini]

You should stop smoking drugs ! Simon Kindston is going to be very upset by your post !

Ah yes; just another example of a dealer/broker trying to discredit another person in the same profession...

 

[Zunige]

hansgta,
I don't know why you keep posting in a very ungentlemanly manner, but that says more about you and who you are than anything else...

Best regards,

 

[dretceterini]

Actually, it was Odin and not HansGTA who claimed that the ex-Kauss cars are recreations...

Originally Posted by Odin
Most of the Tipo 33, of Peter Kauss, were recreated in Germany.
Jörg

 

[Odin]

Here we go again.
Peters Tipo 33, were built up in the shop, from Erwin Derichs, in Mayen, Germany, from parts, ask him. I was there, several times and saw it. There was no complete car, entering the shop. Same problem, with PK's Giulia TZ-2 #117, no documentation, no history.
Peter did an exellent job, with his collection and opening it up for public, but not all cars were 100 % real. Made up from period parts and I feel very sad, that his collection, is destroyed by someone, to get richer.
I like original cars and their history, but I like 'Continuation' cars too, without their history.
So when Mr. Kidstone, found the missing chassisnumbers, great and it would be easy, to trade back the history of the cars, cause they are only 40 years old. Some period owners, should be living. But I think, I was reading, that he is assuming the numbers and that means to me, you have to be carefull and you have to do your own research, if you like to buy this cars, but I like them.
Otherwise, why the owner, OWNER of an auctionhouse, is selling this important T 33 collection, by a dealer???
Regards
Jörg

 

[Odin]

You should stop smoking drugs ! Simon Kindston is going to be very upset by your post !

The only drugs, I smoke, are cigarrets, I don't even drink.
It looks like Mr. O's example of promoting 'real' cars, found another gospel.
Regards