The pully on my car was installed about 40K miles ago. The one before that seized but lasted 60K miles. I am about to do the timeing belt change. Should I change the pulley as well, or should I leave it. Not sure if the new one is any better. Is there a regular recommended change interval for these thing because they seem to fail regularly?
Serpentine belt pulley
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Assuming this is a 12 valve, I would say leave it. It is an easy thing to replace when it fails.
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Yes, I would change it unless you don't mind getting a tow truck lift sometime. When it fails, you are going to loose the function of the water pump. Car will overheat. The bearing on that pulley is of a marginal design for the application and it is prone to failure. Either change out the entire pulley with an OEM one or use one of the substitutes that people have posted before. I have been replacing just the bearings (relatively inexpensive part) of that pulley (as often as every year or so) when I do regular maintenance.
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If you want to keep replacing them every year or when they fail you can or you can see what I am doing with them, using original pulley and bearing:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/50334-12v-serpentine-belt-bearing.html
Inexpensive, very long lasting, maintenance free...
Jason
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SAAB 9000 pulley option
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/34970-saab-9000-idler-pulley-option.html
My post on the SAAB 9000 pulley option. Many approaches to that pulley. I have been enjoying the quietness of a plastic pulley. The backside of the belt on a metal pulley always seems to make noise, but the plastic one runs quiet and has held up well so far and I drive my car (fairly hard
) everyday. In fact it's not even clean right now (been working on The Brick too much).
Charles
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/34970-saab-9000-idler-pulley-option.html
My post on the SAAB 9000 pulley option. Many approaches to that pulley. I have been enjoying the quietness of a plastic pulley. The backside of the belt on a metal pulley always seems to make noise, but the plastic one runs quiet and has held up well so far and I drive my car (fairly hard
) everyday. In fact it's not even clean right now (been working on The Brick too much).Charles
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Hmm, I've read that but it sounds like some "magic pill" to me
! I'll let other try it out for a couple of years first ! How long is the warrantee ! Also, once you pop the seal off it is pretty hard to put it back like the factory - dirt and contaminations is a big concern too!Replacing the bearing is very easy with a press (just 5 minutes or even less) and I usually have the belt off for one reason or the other . The first time takes a little longer to prep the pulley but after that it just a piece of cake.
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Magic pill?? If you say so!Hmm, I've read that but it sounds like some "magic pill" to me
Replacing the bearing is very easy with a press (just 5 minutes or even less) and I usually have the belt off for one reason or the other . The first time takes a little longer to prep the pulley but after that it just a piece of cake.
The info is there for the reading so that folks can understand it is not just magic. It is a completely different type of grease.
Replacing the bearing every 15,20,30 or even 40K is what you like to do that is fine. Sure it's cheap, A good SKF bearing is $37.00. You can use cheap Japanese or Chinese bearings which run $11-15 and I can guarantee they will need changing even sooner. The problem is your always using the same hydrocarbon grease which can only handle up to 230˚F and is lost through the seals very easy when it reaches these temps.
Krytox on the otherhand can handle 650˚F, uses less grease and is not lost as rapidly through the seals as the hydrocarbon. It bonds to the metal surfaces and can actually run a long time almost dry. It is a very high load bearing grease as well. You can spend roughly $50 on a New SKF bearing with Krytox or $37 each year, while pulling the pulley having the old bearing replaced and doing it over and over each year. I find it to be one less thing to do. I think we have enough to do on our cars than replacing the same old bearing over and over.
Seals on these bearings are simple to remove with the proper seal pullers and seat back in just as simple as they came out with no negative effects.
Dupont does this all the time for customers and never has bearings come back for problems.
Bob. You pay for the bearing, I will pack it for free. If it fails in 1 year or your typical interval for changing these then I will be proven wrong. (of course depending on what made it fail)
If it goes beyond the 1 year then you can pay me for the krytox and just check it every year.
There was another company that was skeptical about it too. It was a printing company that used a smaller bearing similar in size to this one that took a lot of load and heat. They had to replace them all the time. ALMOST every week.
They tested it with Krytox. With there normal interval checks of 1 week, using the Krytox, the bearing was fine. It went from 1 week to 2 from 2 to 3 to 4 and finally checking them every year. So far the bearings have gone about 5 years before they needed to be cleaned and repacked.
From changing these bearings out almost every week to lasting on average of 5 years and only needed to be cleaned and re-packed as opposed to exploding ,replacing the whole bearing and having to stop the press while possible having to produce something on a time line sure saved them.
I don't know about you but I am sure tired of towing due to bearing failure. Also tired of stocking up on bearings to have pressed in again and again!
This stuff has been proven time and time again.
In the very competitive, high-profile world of professional auto racing, cost-effective maintenance of precision automotive components is crucial. Mechanics look for a lubricant that is easy to apply and most certainly offers consistent, reliable quality.
During the 24-hour race at Nürburgring in Germany this year — one of the most popular and most thrilling long-distance racing events in the world — the high-performance lubricant, DuPontTM Krytox®, created a small sensation. A total of 200 vehicles from 29 manufacturers competed in this grueling race, accumulating 500,000 km.
Materials Selected and Why
During earlier trials at the German formula series, the Touring Car series, the Rally series, and numerous other national and international racing events, Krytox® already proved itself as a superior product. The Krytox® reputation prevailed when Jutta Kleinschmidt, also known as the "Dakar Queen," won the Rally Paris-Dakar trophy in 2001and earned second place in 2002. But meaningful results were yet to be realized at the German long-distance series.
Benefits Gained
Although Team Kindler experienced the weakest engine performance in the N3 class in this year’s endurance race at the 24-hour Nürburgring, it qualified starting in seventh position and placed second, just five minutes behind the winning car. While other teams exchanged axle shafts on their identically constructed vehicles as much as three times during the race, Team Kindler nearly completed the race without changing their Krytox®-lubricated axle. A faulty axle cuff necessitated the only exchange, revealing that Krytox® was still present in all smearing places. “Perhaps we would have been able to finish the race with the leaky axle shaft,” Jürgen Kindler summed up. Kindler was quite impressed with the smearing performance of Krytox®.
Anyways, I have been working on this for a long time. We talked about it many years ago as well but I finally decided it is the ONLY way to make these bearings last.
Magic pill or not. I am not saying it will last forever, will need to be repacked and cleaned at some point, but it will not fail and fall apart to leave you stranded. Longevity and Maintenance free is what Dupont assures me of.
I am using DUPONT VERTREL SDG cleaning agent to clean the bearings, seals are simple to remove and are not damaged in anyway doing this, seals POP back in easy, no dirt will be introduced into the bearing due to them soaking in the cleaning agent, dried immediately and packed and sealed within a few minutes, well that and a clean environment to do this in which I have.
Use it or not but it is there if you want to try it. I am offering it since I have to buy a lot of this stuff and it is not cheap. Thought I would share the success.
Chazzy, The saab Bearing is nice. But will suffer the same problem, Hyrdocarbon grease, high temps is the problem. Although quiet. The krytox although used in the OEM metal pulley is super quite now.
I can pack the saab bearings as well if you choose the plastic pulley.
Thanks
Jason
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Oops, sorry! I did try to stay out of that thread ... it is just my personal opinion that if some thing sounds too good then perhaps it is too goodMagic pill?? If you say so!
The info is there for the reading so that folks can understand it is not just magic. It is a completely different type of grease.
Replacing the bearing every 15,20,30 or even 40K is what you like to do that is fine. Sure it's cheap, A good SKF bearing is $37.00. You can use cheap Japanese or Chinese bearings which run $11-15 and I can guarantee they will need changing even sooner. The problem is your always using the same hydrocarbon grease which can only handle up to 230˚F and is lost through the seals very easy when it reaches these temps.
Krytox on the otherhand can handle 650˚F, uses less grease and is not lost as rapidly through the seals as the hydrocarbon. It bonds to the metal surfaces and can actually run a long time almost dry. It is a very high load bearing grease as well. You can spend roughly $50 on a New SKF bearing with Krytox or $37 each year, while pulling the pulley having the old bearing replaced and doing it over and over each year. I find it to be one less thing to do. I think we have enough to do on our cars than replacing the same old bearing over and over.
Seals on these bearings are simple to remove with the proper seal pullers and seat back in just as simple as they came out with no negative effects.
Dupont does this all the time for customers and never has bearings come back for problems.
Bob. You pay for the bearing, I will pack it for free. If it fails in 1 year or your typical interval for changing these then I will be proven wrong. (of course depending on what made it fail)
If it goes beyond the 1 year then you can pay me for the krytox and just check it every year.
There was another company that was skeptical about it too. It was a printing company that used a smaller bearing similar in size to this one that took a lot of load and heat. They had to replace them all the time. ALMOST every week.
They tested it with Krytox. With there normal interval checks of 1 week, using the Krytox, the bearing was fine. It went from 1 week to 2 from 2 to 3 to 4 and finally checking them every year. So far the bearings have gone about 5 years before they needed to be cleaned and repacked.
From changing these bearings out almost every week to lasting on average of 5 years and only needed to be cleaned and re-packed as opposed to exploding ,replacing the whole bearing and having to stop the press while possible having to produce something on a time line sure saved them.
I don't know about you but I am sure tired of towing due to bearing failure. Also tired of stocking up on bearings to have pressed in again and again!
This stuff has been proven time and time again.
In the very competitive, high-profile world of professional auto racing, cost-effective maintenance of precision automotive components is crucial. Mechanics look for a lubricant that is easy to apply and most certainly offers consistent, reliable quality.
During the 24-hour race at Nürburgring in Germany this year — one of the most popular and most thrilling long-distance racing events in the world — the high-performance lubricant, DuPontTM Krytox®, created a small sensation. A total of 200 vehicles from 29 manufacturers competed in this grueling race, accumulating 500,000 km.
Materials Selected and Why
During earlier trials at the German formula series, the Touring Car series, the Rally series, and numerous other national and international racing events, Krytox® already proved itself as a superior product. The Krytox® reputation prevailed when Jutta Kleinschmidt, also known as the "Dakar Queen," won the Rally Paris-Dakar trophy in 2001and earned second place in 2002. But meaningful results were yet to be realized at the German long-distance series.
Benefits Gained
Although Team Kindler experienced the weakest engine performance in the N3 class in this year’s endurance race at the 24-hour Nürburgring, it qualified starting in seventh position and placed second, just five minutes behind the winning car. While other teams exchanged axle shafts on their identically constructed vehicles as much as three times during the race, Team Kindler nearly completed the race without changing their Krytox®-lubricated axle. A faulty axle cuff necessitated the only exchange, revealing that Krytox® was still present in all smearing places. “Perhaps we would have been able to finish the race with the leaky axle shaft,” Jürgen Kindler summed up. Kindler was quite impressed with the smearing performance of Krytox®.
Anyways, I have been working on this for a long time. We talked about it many years ago as well but I finally decided it is the ONLY way to make these bearings last.
Magic pill or not. I am not saying it will last forever, will need to be repacked and cleaned at some point, but it will not fail and fall apart to leave you stranded. Longevity and Maintenance free is what Dupont assures me of.
I am using DUPONT VERTREL SDG cleaning agent to clean the bearings, seals are simple to remove and are not damaged in anyway doing this, seals POP back in easy, no dirt will be introduced into the bearing due to them soaking in the cleaning agent, dried immediately and packed and sealed within a few minutes, well that and a clean environment to do this in which I have.
Use it or not but it is there if you want to try it. I am offering it since I have to buy a lot of this stuff and it is not cheap. Thought I would share the success.
Chazzy, The saab Bearing is nice. But will suffer the same problem, Hyrdocarbon grease, high temps is the problem. Although quiet. The krytox although used in the OEM metal pulley is super quite now.
I can pack the saab bearings as well if you choose the plastic pulley.
Thanks
Jason
!Dupont is a well known company so I'm not questioning the specification of their products. There're usually many solutions to a problem - some better than the other and depending on situation and application. I just haven't bought into the notion of using some "superman grease"
(did Krytox came from Kryptonite?) will solve all bearing problems yet! People can decide what best for them!
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I don't believe in much either. Especially when they have massive advertising, there on everyone's shelves and none of them have probably used it and tested it. Not the case here.Oops, sorry! I did try to stay out of that thread ... it is just my personal opinion that if some thing sounds too good then perhaps it is too good
Dupont is a well known company so I'm not questioning the specification of their products. There're usually many solutions to a problem - some better than the other and depending on situation and application. I just haven't bought into the notion of using some "superman grease"
Actually I am not suppose to tell anyone as I did sign an affidavit. Not from kryptonite but close. Actually made from a top secret formula using an element only known to Aliens and the government. I think most of it is made in Area 51. But not sure as they can't tell me. I am actually surprised that they even sell the stuff to the human race.
Remember it was designed and used on the Space Shuttle although the 2 explosions where not caused by the Krytox. Also used on Space craft of the saucer type, helps them spin faster with less failures.
I am by no means stating this will last forever! It will eventually need to be cleaned and re-packed maybe 3,4,5 or more years down the road but it will not fail and leave you stranded to call the tow truck guy and max out your tow on your insurance.
Much better IMO than pressing in another one each year. Even if it saves you 1-2 times of replacement is a bargain right there.
Your solution is the norm. Either press in a new bearing or buy a new pulley.
My solution is to keep the same bearing for double, triple, quadruple the time period with no potential failure for one less thing to worry about and purchase.
Krytox is nothing new. It has been around for around 15 years or so.
Remember I own a 164 as well and have the same problems as the rest. I am sure that this will relieve us of the worries of at least this one problem area.
I have tried all the alternatives.
24V timing bearing, too much modification and does not last any longer than OEM bearing.
Saab or something else with plastic pulley, which typically use cheapo bearings and last no longer than OEM.
So I have been down that road.
I have installed a standard pulley and bearing on a customers car a few months back, I installed same bearing at the near same time on mine repacked with krytox.
Customer came back in for some work and I checked the bearing. The hydrocarbon grease has seeped past the seals and out, the bearing does show some lateral movement now.
Mine on the other hand shows none of the above. It shows no grease going past the seals, no lateral movement at all which is good. Mine is much quieter than his and we both are using the same belt and tension.
Believe it or not the bearing using the standard hydrocarbon grease is already showing signs of failure while the krytox is like new. I will pull it in a few months to check internal progress.
I hope to be able to do more components with this stuff later.
Thanks
jason
failure intervals?
Just curious, what's everyone experience with the pulley failing. Is the average 10K, 20K, 30K or 40K miles? Based on what I read, it seems to be random, one guys had to replace the bearing 3 times with 30K miles? Definitely not fun to have such a wildcard.
Just curious, what's everyone experience with the pulley failing. Is the average 10K, 20K, 30K or 40K miles? Based on what I read, it seems to be random, one guys had to replace the bearing 3 times with 30K miles? Definitely not fun to have such a wildcard.
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I have had the same issues. I have had to call a tow truck 150 miles away from home. I have called a tow truck the most for this bearing failure.
I know the pain!
Some can last for a few thousand others up to 40 and 50K depending in driving, conditions, ambient temps, water, etc...
This is one reason why I did research on what besides replacing time and time again with new OEM, bearing or alternative. Why is this failing?
We discussed it many moons ago and it is a matter of RPM, load, environment like heat and grease.
Krytox can cure most of it if not all if the problems that cause failure.
I know it does sound like a stretch but if you do the research on the product, I have not read one negative thing on Krytox.
I do not stand to gain much from offering this service at all. The thing I gain the most is the fact that I myself and others will no longer have to deal with this failure and focus on other things. Like I said I have to purchase in bulk and it cost me a lot to do so. So basically I am only charging for what the stuff cost per bearing, plus a new bearing, used bearing or new pulley with bearing.
If your willing I can send you a new bearing packed with the krytox and you let me know how it does.
I have new SKF bearings going under the knife this week.
Jason
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I've had them last 50k and then the replacement 10k. I think the only way to really cover yourself would be to replace it with a stock one once a year. Something I'm not willing to do, so I did something different.
I covered my take on this a couple of years ago in this thread (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/24288-164-12v-accessory-belt-idler-substitute.html). I used a double race bearing and turned a new 2 piece insert for it's different ID. I've had no problems since but It's probably only been 15k miles.
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Jason,
There is nothing inherently disrespectful (in my opinion) about the phrase "magic pill." From what I hear and read, I would very much believe that Krytox is indeed such a useful solution to a problem. Sort of like modern techniques for nitriding steel really improve journal bearing longevity. Another "magic pill" of a far more magic and better sort is penicillin. Works like gangbusters. And "Top Spot" or other version of the flea/tick maturation process buster that keeps my house with its many animals free of the itsy-bitsy vermin that can make life so much more memorable. In this technological world, there are indeed some things which fully qualify as "magic pills" or "magic bullets." We'll let Bob wait and see, but I plan to be an early adopter on this one.
Michael (getting together some bearings for your Krytox treatment)
There is nothing inherently disrespectful (in my opinion) about the phrase "magic pill." From what I hear and read, I would very much believe that Krytox is indeed such a useful solution to a problem. Sort of like modern techniques for nitriding steel really improve journal bearing longevity. Another "magic pill" of a far more magic and better sort is penicillin. Works like gangbusters. And "Top Spot" or other version of the flea/tick maturation process buster that keeps my house with its many animals free of the itsy-bitsy vermin that can make life so much more memorable. In this technological world, there are indeed some things which fully qualify as "magic pills" or "magic bullets." We'll let Bob wait and see, but I plan to be an early adopter on this one.
Michael (getting together some bearings for your Krytox treatment)
Been there, done that with failed bearing, towing from the middle of nowhere, etc.
One thing for sure, if you choose to use the OEM pulley and bearing, do not tighten the belt to the factory specs. This is much too high. I tighten the belt to about half of the spec, just so it is on the verge of squealing when starting from cold with the a/c on. Most people reef on the tensioner to tighten the belt and I'm sure they get it way too tight. I use the Gates Kricket belt tension gauge (looks exactly like the special Alfa factory tool) and try to hit about 65-70 pounds tension rather than the 130-140 pounds value in the manual.
I always start with the a/c off (of course, this is Seattle, so who needs it anyway, except to defog the windows in the rain) so that everything warms up before trying the a/c if I need it. This avoids the marginal squeal on cold start up, I've found.
When I get to it, I will be using the Dupont Krytox grease as supplied by Jason, as the Krytox grease, being a completely different formulation with materials developed for the aerospace industry, is really superior to the commonplace el cheapo automotive bearing greases we usually get.
One thing for sure, if you choose to use the OEM pulley and bearing, do not tighten the belt to the factory specs. This is much too high. I tighten the belt to about half of the spec, just so it is on the verge of squealing when starting from cold with the a/c on. Most people reef on the tensioner to tighten the belt and I'm sure they get it way too tight. I use the Gates Kricket belt tension gauge (looks exactly like the special Alfa factory tool) and try to hit about 65-70 pounds tension rather than the 130-140 pounds value in the manual.
I always start with the a/c off (of course, this is Seattle, so who needs it anyway, except to defog the windows in the rain) so that everything warms up before trying the a/c if I need it. This avoids the marginal squeal on cold start up, I've found.
When I get to it, I will be using the Dupont Krytox grease as supplied by Jason, as the Krytox grease, being a completely different formulation with materials developed for the aerospace industry, is really superior to the commonplace el cheapo automotive bearing greases we usually get.
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