[Luis]

Need advice in some ways.

Now i have 3.0 12v, C&B cams, 10:1, CSC, Megasquirt... but want more, i have suzuki ITB´s for a next upgrade.

I know that 24v conversion is another option, but the power gain vs money it´s not very big.

Another option it´s the 2.0 v6 turbo, that engine it´s really fast, even more than the 3.2 GTA whith little boost increase, but the turbo conversion it´s a pain.

Another option is Supercharging, don´t like the noise too much and don´t like the conversion kits, but i think it´s the better option.

Now some points:

Need to drop CR.
High power output.
Want a "goog looking" installation.

Time ago i was looking for a mix of 2.0 turbo and 3.0 engine, no more on that.

After this Squadra Tuning i realize that i have all the parts to make the 2.8 engine with the low comp needed and it´s easy to do.

The questión is, can i get similar power figures with a supecharger? (i know that the answer is yes)

Which one to use?
What i should expect from a M62 one?
And what i really want, can i put the supercharger in the top of the engine instead of the plenum?

Get one idea from a Kleeman MB v6 supercharger, it´s upside down, water cooled, mounted at the top whith the runners routed each side, but it´s a 90º angle V6 whith more clearance.

Or what about rear mounted turbo? and throw away the CSC to get some clearance for the extra piping....

 

[Greg Gordon]

All of these options will work, and all can give enough power to break the transaxle, so from a max power standpoint it doesn't matter which way you go.

It's possible to mount the supercharger in the middle of the V and force air up into an intercooler and then into the engine. A lot of V8 Jaguars are set up that way. It can be done on an Alfa, but as with any engine it adds complexity in the belt drive system and adds height to the package.


I wouldn't go with rear mounted turbo(s). There is plenty of room in the engine bay for a conventional turbo set up, which is far superior to a rear mounted unit

Greg

 

[75evo]

Luis,

What about rotrex c30? It wont high have high discharge temps and this wont really require a compression drop. It wont have the low end torque as a twin screw suoerchargers though. Im looking into the rotrex option. Install it where the ac compressor was.

 

[Luis]

Luis,

What about rotrex c30? It wont high have high discharge temps and this wont really require a compression drop. It wont have the low end torque as a twin screw suoerchargers though. Im looking into the rotrex option. Install it where the ac compressor was.

Another option too, but there is no power or boost till half rpm range.

About the compression drop, you mean whith low boost targets?

Novitec sold centrifugal kits like that (and now they no longer offer support for that ones).

 

[Greg Gordon]

Luis,

What about rotrex c30? It wont high have high discharge temps and this wont really require a compression drop. It wont have the low end torque as a twin screw suoerchargers though. Im looking into the rotrex option. Install it where the ac compressor was.

There are some pretty good reasons why centrifugal superchargers haven't been used on production cars since 1964. Oh, there may be a handful of cars with centrifugals, but I can't think of any right now, compared to the numbers of Roots, Lysholms, and Turbos it's almost nothing.

Greg

 

[Duk]

The Koenigsegg used a pair of Rotrex superchargers to boost their engine.

 

[75evo]

Is the a way v6 engines can get thicker gaskets? Some custom setup? Greg?

 

[Greg Gordon]

The Koenigsegg used a pair of Rotrex superchargers to boost their engine.

I hesitate to call that a production car, even if it is, the numbers still don't compare to the other types of forced induction.

Zamani, yes, it's possible to buy thicker headgaskets, but I don't know if it's a good idea. It's a lot easier to water inject the engine.

Greg

 

[mutebachi]

Hi,

Had same dilemma here in Hungary, with a 164. Not to hijack your thread, but here is my saga.

I work in IT, have no car building experience.
Had a late model diesel 164 for long commutes that I simply LOVED but sold, wanted to get a strong petrol variant this time.

I decided to go crazy and got a '93 2.0 v6 tb super in really BAD condition but dirt cheap to use as a sort of chassis and engine part donor (see first two pics). Out came the 2.0 block, in went a 3.0 12v (pics 3 and 4). Kept most everything from the TB inlc. ECU, CR was dropped to 8.5, fuel system was converted for 100% e85 operation.

Long term target is a reliable 600ish wheel or crank hp (FWD! Unusable! Crazy! Family car! I know!)

Stage 1 had the small turbo from the v6, 510cc injectors, uprated walbro pump, bov, wastegate, uprated gaskets, 70mm straight exhaust, temporarily withouth mufflers :-> Nice sound.

BUNCH of fixes (steering, custom suspension based on the OE, custom engine mount rubber things, electrical stuff)

Stage 1 quickly ended like this: shouldn't have kept the old oil pump. Lost oil pressure on a short 120 mph highway cruise. Pump was worn out, couldn't pump hot and thin oil. Turned out the turbo was in no good shape either, and was way too small so decided to go for a new one. Bent rods, busted bearings, the usual :-/

Stage 2
Now has a 3082R turbo, new and bigger intercooler, oil cooler, mid and rear mufflers for sane sound levels & police compatibility (still sounds nice, still no cat). Accel 200 to give 18v for ignition. This is pic 5. Not very nice but wanted to keep close to stock bumper, giving up fog lamps.

Stage 2 Part 1 ended just 4 Kms (2 miles) after pickup from the shop. Car ran on 3 cylinders, some e85 got into the oil... Back to the shop asap. Ignition gave up. Replaced a bunch of stuff again. Got brand new ignition system.

I hope to pick it up next week.

Running 0.8-0.9 Bar (11.6 psi?), stock but reprogrammed ECU.
Don't know HP or torque figures since I have stock rods and pistons, flooring it in 4th and 5th is out of the question. Will get MAP selector next month (need a map for daily and engine-safe driving, and one for surprise drags in gears 1-2-3)
Mechanic estimates 400ish hp (crank or wheel I don't know). You do the math (E85 has a higher Octane rating than the standard 95 here in Europe and the car is programmed for it)

Still this year
- LSD, tranny rebuild (something wrong with the housing, already have proper housing)
- Brake upgrade
- Hood cutouts (excessive heat). Will look bad on a 164. Maybe NACA ducts would look better or using ceramic coating on some stuff would lower temps.
- Just saw a set of Zender Milanos on the local Alfa Forum, Instant get (was stupid and sold the old set with the old car)
- New wiring built from scratch (engine bay)

THE FINAL Stage will only happen next year (as $ allows)
- Custom JE pistons and rods
- Custom, stronger Cometic gaskets
- Custom profile C&B cams (maybe not, depends on budget)
- 1.5~1.8 bar (21.7+ psi)
- something done to the hydraulic tappets to take higher revs nicely (now it revs to 7k happily and in power)
- Valve and valve spring work
I can't recall the rest...

Serious amount for me, but lotsa fun I hope. And bit of cure for my anhedonia.

BTW the he car still looks ugly as hell, needs a decent paint job etc...

$20k and counting, including the car. A good portion of this is because of the worn out oil pump and ignition...

One short post with a few more pics and my .02 coming up.

 

[mutebachi]

Pic 1 is a close up of the oil cooler and the intercooler.
3082R in Pic 2
Pic 3 is the top of the engine compartment - You can see it still has the stock-looking top of the 2.0 V6 TB. And the BOV I think.

In conclusion: yes, "cheap" conversion from 2.0 tb and 3.0 is possible (12v cheaper than 24v), Replace critical parts AND your mechanic must know what he's doing.

An older vid of one of my mechanic's work on a 155 q4 7,65 @ 1/8, a daily driver car.

The best for this car in 2009 was 7.2 1/8, 11.3 1/4...

It baffles me how a mechanic building successful and reliable Mitsu Evos and 155s and 164s and Lancia Deltas for 15 years could miss on my oil pump and ignition...

Other threads have loads of info on different conversions...

Best

 

[slyalfa]

- something done to the hydraulic tappets to take higher revs nicely (now it revs to 7k happily and in power)


There is no such thing on a 12V.
The intake is set with shims. and the ex. side is set with the tiny screw that goes to the tiny push rod.

The 24V is the one with hydraulic tappets

 

[mutebachi]

There is no such thing on a 12V. The intake is set with shims. and the ex. side is set with the tiny screw that goes to the tiny push rod.

The 24V is the one with hydraulic tappets

****. Just asked the guy last week about it.
I have a service/workshop manual, time to read and learn.

Thanks for the info...

 

[FMG_V6_btb]

Squish is very important for an efficient combustion, more in turbo engines, hence the use of cylinder head gaskets thicker than original is a bad solution, custom pistons is the way to go (even is not cheap at the beginning)

 

[540is]

Another option too, but there is no power or boost till half rpm range.

About the compression drop, you mean whith low boost targets?

Novitec sold centrifugal kits like that (and now they no longer offer support for that ones).

As a person done about 5 different Rotrex cars I can say boost comes around 1800-2000rpm (earlier if you use restrictor) on a low boost setup with a high boost setup (or restrictor) you move boost start point to 1200-1300 rpm.
but ofc. its not like a twin screw with full boost from 0 rpm. - usally thats good because your engine and driveline will hold up instead of blow up

 

[jazig.k]

Luis,
Im looking into the rotrex option. Install it where the ac compressor was.

Have you seen the range of Sprintex superchargers? The smallest one is ****ing tiny! Could easily fit it down where the AC lives [or used to]. I'm not sure what size would be suitable for the V6, but they really only get longer rather than bigger in body dimensions by memory.

A link to the page with the range and tech drawings.
Sprintex - Superchargers and Supercharger Systems | Superchargers

Here's the second model up, s5-150