[he3r0]

I tried to troubleshoot my ill Alfa, but so far "no go"...
Everything had begin with this: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/53936-another-happy-day-my-alfa.html#post476842
Now, i`ve checked all connections and they are loking fine,
I did tried to "jump start" the starter by connecting battery directly to it,
(with that small jumper thingy) and the starter (recently - maybe a 3 weeks ago) was replaced
by me, with the rebuild one, and I still have the old one that was
a)smaller than the new one,
b)old one was not the bosh brand...

But anyway, somehow I cant have my starter to turn the engine, I pulled the starter out of the car and it seams that it does work, but after mounting it in the car, I just hear CLICK. Now, I do understand that rebuild starter could get bad (a bit quick if somebody would ask me) but if starter is still working good... that means that something internally in engine may be messed up? I understand that turning engine by hand may not be possible to check if it works without problems? i did pulled valve cover to take a look at timing chain, but it does look ok.
Im out of Ideas, because either my new starter went bad or engine got seized??
Im open for any opinion and suggestion.
Thanks in advance...

 

[ghnl]

If you put the transmission in 4th gear and release the hand brake you should be able to roll the car forwards without too much difficulty (if you remove the spark plugs it should almost as easy as pushing it in neutral). Doing so will thus turn the crankshaft and allow you to see if the engine is 'siezed'.

BTW, connections can LOOK fine but actually not be so. You should undo them, clean them and then secure them. That is the only way to know they are good. (even then it is possible for the cable to be faulty or the internal connection between the cable and the terminal could be faulty)

When you tested the starter out of the car did the small gear move in the direction that would engage the ring gear on the flywheel? Or did it just turn but not move forward/backward?

 

[he3r0]

If you put the transmission in 4th gear and release the hand brake you should be able to roll the car forwards without too much difficulty (if you remove the spark plugs it should almost as easy as pushing it in neutral). Doing so will thus turn the crankshaft and allow you to see if the engine is 'siezed'.

That would be something what I need to check

When you tested the starter out of the car did the small gear move in the direction that would engage the ring gear on the flywheel? Or did it just turn but not move forward/backward?

Yes the small gear moved forward, and than it did started spinning.
And I just came back from advancedautoparts and they tested my battery, it came out good.

Thanks Eric.

 

[86spider]

starter woes

You said the old starter was smaller? Is the new larger one incompatible with the ring gear on your car? I know that I have read of different years having differing numbers of teeth on the ring gear and require a different starter. Perhaps once installed the starter gear does not engage the ring gear. You did put the special bolt for the starter in the proper location, didn't you? Middle I think but could be wrong. That special bolt serves to properly locate the starter.

Wayne

 

[he3r0]

You said the old starter was smaller? Is the new larger one incompatible with the ring gear on your car? I know that I have read of different years having differing numbers of teeth on the ring gear and require a different starter. Perhaps once installed the starter gear does not engage the ring gear. You did put the special bolt for the starter in the proper location, didn't you? Middle I think but could be wrong. That special bolt serves to properly locate the starter.

Wayne

ahh, i may not been clear enough, but im clarifying.
about 3 weeks or so i was forced to replace my starter, because one that was in the car died.
after pulling old one from the car, i ve noticed that it is not a BOSH, and comparing to the new one (well re-manufactured that had BOSH all over it) old one was significantly smaller. Because of the size I`ve had some struggling with the bolts but the new one fit like a glove. and it did worked for about 3 weeks. now it does not turn the engine at all... I did tested my battery at advancedautoparts, I pulled starter to do a bench test (though i cant check if the starter has required power/torque output) and the starter do work how I would expect it would off the car - ie. small gear slides and than it starts spinning... but that is off the car. now sometime tomorrow I will do the "roll" test to be sure that the engine by itself is not seized, what would I believe have quite similar symptoms... if the roll test will pass with flying colors, that means that starter is shot, if it would not pass... I dont want to even think about this ;(

 

[Elio Comello]

Maciej,

Here in Canada (in the snow and the cold) rather than roll the car, it is easier to raise a rear wheel of the car. In 5th gear, with the spark plugs out you can easily rotate the engine by turning the raised rear wheel by hand. I use that trick to spread MMO in each cylinder at hibernation time and before Spring commissioning. You can also check the starter (no load) this way.

Best regards Elio

 

[he3r0]

Maciej,

Here in Canada (in the snow and the cold) rather than roll the car, it is easier to raise a rear wheel of the car. In 5th gear, with the spark plugs out you can easily rotate the engine by turning the raised rear wheel by hand. I use that trick to spread MMO in each cylinder at hibernation time and before Spring commissioning. You can also check the starter (no load) this way.

Best regards Elio

HA! I did not expected to be THAT light)

Thank you Elio

 

[alfafan61]

Elio:

That works with a posi rear end? or do you use 2 people?

 

[Elio Comello]

Works fine with one person, but you need to have the other wheel on the ground (or blocked). It takes little force to turn the engine over. Of course if you want to be in the engine bay looking or hearing, you need someone to turn the raised rear wheel.

TTFN Elio

 

[Alfacliff]

try turning on the lights then starting, if the lights go out, there is a very bad connection between the battery and starter. there is also a heavy wire connected to the same terminal as the battery cable to the starter, this is the one that supplies power to the fuse box. these cables have a bad habit of corroding inside the crimped on connectors.
cliff

 

[MrT]

A sticky solenoid can be a problem. The solenoid pulls a metal slug into a magnetic field from a coil. The mechanical motion makes up the switch that applies voltage to the starter. If the solenoid doesn't quite make up the switch, then you'll hear a "click" as it tries to move the slug and at least partially engages the pinion in the ring gear, but you'll hear no starter motion as the switch isn't made up.

If you tested the starter motor by applying voltage to it directly, you have only tested part of the system. And it's possible that your ignition switch or appropriate relay is not really passing all the voltage to the solenoid. If the solenoid is only partially energized, then it may not make up its switch to apply power to the starter. Or its internal switch contacts may be dirty.

Where did you get your replacement starter? If I were you, I'd be looking to rebuild the original starter while it's out of the car. Find a good shop. A couple of days and a few tens of $ should be all that's needed, and then you'll have something to swap back into the car.

 

[he3r0]

If you tested the starter motor by applying voltage to it directly, you have only tested part of the system. And it's possible that your ignition switch or appropriate relay is not really passing all the voltage to the solenoid. If the solenoid is only partially energized, then it may not make up its switch to apply power to the starter. Or its internal switch contacts may be dirty.

But I did buy passed whole ignition mechanism, and simulated ignition switch by small jumper, just to eliminate ignition circuit.

Where did you get your replacement starter? If I were you, I'd be looking to rebuild the original starter while it's out of the car. Find a good shop. A couple of days and a few tens of $ should be all that's needed, and then you'll have something to swap back into the car.

I bought the remanufactured starter from eBay Store - Collectable Parts: Ford, Chevrolet, Marine
and It was original BOSH (remanufactured) and the one that was originally in the vehicle was also remanufactured, with was branded with something that looked like "Worldwide"...

 

[he3r0]

Works fine with one person, but you need to have the other wheel on the ground (or blocked). It takes little force to turn the engine over. Of course if you want to be in the engine bay looking or hearing, you need someone to turn the raised rear wheel.

TTFN Elio

and how much force do we talking about? I tried that today, and I was not able to turn the wheel on any gear for more than a slack (or im just a wuss)

 

[Elio Comello]

You must have missed that I said to remove the plugs......
With plugs removed very easy, not much force at all.

Elio

 

[he3r0]

You must have missed that I said to remove the plugs......
With plugs removed very easy, not much force at all.

Elio

not, i did not missed it that is the thing...

 

[Robert Ferguson]

The starter isn' alot of fun to remove, and replace. I lean towards MrT's thought's. I had a nice rebuilt starter that failed, ended up putting a new soleniod on it after much touble shooting. You can't check condition of contact's inside of soleniod. They probable don't at rebuild.
The Ferg

 

[ghnl]

and how much force do we talking about? I tried that today, and I was not able to turn the wheel on any gear for more than a slack

If you had the spark plugs out and could not make the engine move with 1HP (Human Power) then there is a problem. Either something is jammed or there is a major internal engine fault.

You did try it is 4th or 5th speed, correct? It will be much harder to turn the engine (by rolling the car or jacking up one rear wheel and turning it) in the lower gears.

 

[Tifosi]

One could always try putting the trans in neutral and giving the engine fan a tug.

I know I can turn mine that way with or without plugs in it. (obviously much easier without the plugs in of course)


*NOTE*

If you try it and the fan shatters in your hand because it's old and brittle, that would fall into the 'not my problem' side of things.

 

[MrT]

Just put the car into 5th gear and push it to see whether the engine is seized. If it moves, the engine is free. If not, then you have bigger problems than a starter. This is not likely, in my opinion. More likely is that the starter solenoid isn't fully engaging.

Would you consider trying to push-start the car? If you are confident that the engine isn't the problem, then we're veering off-course in the thread.

Michael

 

[he3r0]

One could always try putting the trans in neutral and giving the engine fan a tug.

I know I can turn mine that way with or without plugs in it. (obviously much easier without the plugs in of course)


*NOTE*

If you try it and the fan shatters in your hand because it's old and brittle, that would fall into the 'not my problem' side of things.

Better that than during higher rpm`s (read:safer for a car)