[richardbradford]

Hi,

Just re-assembled the cam cover/spark plug oil well gaskets with the newer and very expensive black rubberised gaskets and they are leaking oil.

Any advice on this?

Richard

164 24v

 

[Alfisto Steve]

Hi,

Just re-assembled the cam cover/spark plug oil well gaskets with the newer and very expensive black rubberised gaskets and they are leaking oil.

Any advice on this?

Richard

164 24v

The spark plug well gaskets were round ones for 24v and not oval shaped ones for 12v right?

 

[richardbradford]

They were round ones for 24v and not oval shaped ones for 12v right?

I'm not sure what you mean by this Steve. The cam cover gaskets have a 3+ corrugated effect on one side and smooth on the other. The oil well gaskets follow a similar route.

My24v is running a very rough idle now - possibly just on the front bank as I may have upset all the rears, and my wife is very angry as I failed to meet her at the airport tonight. I can hear tearing paper upstairs...

 

[Alfisto Steve]

I thought you were talking about 6 rubber spark plug well gaskets leaking or were you saying 2 piece cam cover gaskets are leaking. There are also 4 special rubber gaskets that go over front cam bearing caps.

Which gaskets are leaking? On two piece flat cam cover gaskets there is a short flat piece that goes between front cam bearing caps on each head, too (that is what makes cover gaskets two piece).

6 spark plug well round gaskets
4 cam bearing cap rubber strip gaskets
2 valve cover two-piece flat gaskets

 

[richardbradford]

I thought you were talking about 6 rubber spark plug well gaskets leaking or were you saying 2 piece cam cover gaskets are leaking. There are also 4 special rubber gaskets that go over front cam bearing caps.

Which gaskets are leaking? On two piece cam cover gaskets there is a short flat piece that goes between front cam bearing caps on each head, too (that is what makes cover gaskets two piece).

Hi Steve,

thanks for the quick reply.

I just replaced cam cover and spark plug oil well gaskets on the rear bank. Took it for a run yesterday and ran well but rough above 5000 rpm - assumed poss exhaust prob as system in is decay.
Knew fuel pipes were not entirely OK clip wise so put on new ones.
5 miles later decided to check on new fuel pipes and saw so much smoke from engine I took the fire extinguisher. New gasket failure assumed.

Bought spare 5 litres of oil for extortionate money from local garage and trundled home at les than 2000 rpm. My right foot weighs more than a million tons but given a press or a v6 destruction I can wait....

 

[richardbradford]

Hi,

sorry was a bit drunk when writing the above as was well cheesed off, not least because my wife had been chewing my ear for not 'bothering' to collect her from the airport.

To clarify, the plug oil well seals are the 6 round ones (rubberised) and the cam cover gaskets are single piece rubberised items, with three grooves on the lower surface.

from the smoke from the rear bank, have to conclude the cam cover gasket there didn't seal and from the way the engine performance deteriorated am assuming the plug well seals there didn't either - the front bank has yet to be changed; thank god or I probably wouldn't have made it home.

Thanks,

Richard

 

[Alfisto Steve]

Hi,

sorry was a bit drunk when writing the above as was well cheesed off, not least because my wife had been chewing my ear for not 'bothering' to collect her from the airport.

To clarify, the plug oil well seals are the 6 round ones (rubberised) and the cam cover gaskets are single piece rubberised items, with three grooves on the lower surface.

from the smoke from the rear bank, have to conclude the cam cover gasket there didn't seal and from the way the engine performance deteriorated am assuming the plug well seals there didn't either - the front bank has yet to be changed; thank god or I probably wouldn't have made it home.

Thanks,

Richard

You said, "cam cover gaskets are single piece rubberised items, with three grooves on the lower surface". I have never seen that type. Does it have a way to snap onto valve cover and follow all the contours around front cam bearing caps?

Only type I have seen is flat non rubber ones that lay on head and you have to lay short flat piece between cam caps and install rubber strips in grooves in front cam bearing caps.

 

[164TD]

If they are for the sparkplugwells, you need to install them with the grooves up.
I replaced them on my 24V, I don't know if they are the same on a 12V.

Here a picture you can see seals with the grooves.

http://85.92.131.201/~alfa164/fotoalbum/showfoto.php?zoom=yes&album=164 TD&foto=DSC05136.JPG

Arjen

PS From what I can recollect, they are about 2 dollars each

 

[richardbradford]

If they are for the sparkplugwells, you need to install them with the grooves up.
I replaced them on my 24V, I don't know if they are the same on a 12V.

Here a picture you can see seals with the grooves.

http://85.92.131.201/~alfa164/fotoalbum/showfoto.php?zoom=yes&album=164 TD&foto=DSC05136.JPG

Arjen

PS From what I can recollect, they are about 2 dollars each

Thanks. Yes, the spark plug well seals were fitted with the grooves up but the cam cover gasket (only did the rear bank as this was the worst) had to be fitted with the grooves down as it is moulded that way - as dictated by the arched parts for the cam belt end. Just a single, large, one-piece rubber seal instead of the old, multi-part paper and rubber affair that had blown.

Actually took a quick peek today and at the back of the rear bank, between the middle and right (away from cam belt end) hex bolts, the gasket has bowed outwards - hence the smoke from oil on the rear exhaust manifold.

The more concerning problem is that the car is running like a dog - reckon it is only firing on 3 so it seems likely each of the replaced spark well seals have also failed.

Maybe I didn't tighten the cam cover up enough but it was pretty tight and the gasket was visibly squashed. Anyone know of the torque setting for such a gasket or the required thickness between cam cover and cylinder head after tightening?

Thanks,

Richard

 

[Alfisto Steve]

According to 94 shop manual torque for cam cover bolts is 6.6 - 8.1 ft lbs (8.9 to 11 Nm).

Does this new style rubberized valve cover gasket have anyway to hold it in place to head or valve cover like spark plug well gaskets do?

It would have to be rear cover wouldn't it so some real disassembly required to get back to square one so to speak?

 

[richardbradford]

According to 94 shop manual torque for cam cover bolts is 6.6 - 8.1 ft lbs (8.9 to 11 Nm).

Does this new style rubberized valve cover gasket have anyway to hold it in place to head or valve cover like spark plug well gaskets do?

It would have to be rear cover wouldn't it so some real disassembly required to get back to square one so to speak?

Thanks Steve,

Yeah, it was a real dog to get to - especially the rear corner near the cam belt.
The rubberised cam cover gasket made life harder too. Unlike the spark plug well gaskets there are no aids to hold it in place and where it goes around the bolts it only does so on the inner side - making it difficult to stop it dissapearing inside the cam cover, or popping out. There are some tabs on it to aid pulling it out if it does slip inside a bit but the whole reassembly process was an absolute swine trying to get it right - had to take the cam cover off 4 times due to positioning not being quite right on reassembly - which makes it more gutting that it has popped out again.

In terms of how far down to clamp it, torque settings aside, it has occurred to me that if the spark plug well seals are the same as the removed ones, which it seems they are, then this thick rubberised gasket will need to be squashed down to the same thickness as the previous (normal?) paper gasket - I may have had another mm to go, in an attempt not to over-tighten.

Attempting to add some pics - hopefully they will appear here.

Thanks.

PS - pics didn't appear so here is a link to them:

http://www.thewayster.com/alfa 164 pics.html

 

[164TD]

I have never seen those before on a 164; most likely for an older model V6 from Alfa like the 6C engine.(75/Milano) or for the 166 V6 models.

Arjen

 

[Alfisto Steve]

Did your engine come with this type of one piece rubber gasket or flat "paperlike" one with short flat piece and rubber pieces for cam front humps?

Looking at your pictures it looks like to me top side of rubber gasket has a rubber ridge that should go into a groove in special valve cover.

I wonder if Alfa changed valve cover design to go with this gasket on later 164 models or different model like 166? Parts CD indicates different part numbers for gaskets and valve covers.

WHAT IS PART NUMBER OF GASKET YOU HAVE?

What is your chassis number and engine number so I can look up what configuration you should have and verify engine number.



If so you may have wrong gasket if your valve cover designed for flat gasket.

If so I doubt you can ever fit this gasket and get a safe seal since extra thickness is not in a groove and will pop out as yours did. If so also it will also prevent spark plug well gaskets from ever sealing due because valve cover to far off head.

 

[richardbradford]

Did your engine come with this type of one piece rubber gasket or flat "paperlike" one with short flat piece and rubber pieces for cam front humps?

Looking at your pictures it looks like to me top side of rubber gasket has a rubber ridge that should go into a groove in special valve cover.

I wonder if Alfa changed valve cover design to go with this gasket on later 164 models or different model like 166? Parts CD indicates different part numbers for gaskets and valve covers.

WHAT IS PART NUMBER OF GASKET YOU HAVE?

What is your chassis number and engine number so I can look up what configuration you should have and verify engine number.



If so you may have wrong gasket if your valve cover designed for flat gasket.

If so I doubt you can ever fit this gasket and get a safe seal since extra thickness is not in a groove and will pop out as yours did. If so also it will also prevent spark plug well gaskets from ever sealing due because valve cover to far off head.

Thanks a lot for that Steve.

Here are the numbers for my car:

spares no. 0027992
chassis: ZAR164000*06320 273
engine: 66302
version: 164k1f

Luckily I paid for these by credit card so if they do turn out to be the wrong parts and a dispute occurs then at least should be able to get a refund.

Await your verdict with interest.

Thanks.

Richard

 

[richardbradford]

Hi,

following Steve's comment I just called the gasket supplier and as soon as I mentioned what I had been sent they realised they had sent the wrong ones. Sending me out some correct ones and asked me to return the wrong ones.

At least that solves the 'mystery of the rubberised cam cover gaskets in a 164'.

Many, many thanks for the help on this.

All the best,

Richard

 

[Alfisto Steve]

OK, hope you get correct gaskets now. Looks like your car was made 05-95 and based on chassis number you gave: ZAR164000*06320 273
engine: 66302 engine serial number is 0000565
version: 164k1f
spares no. 0027992

Based on chassis/VIN # these are parts numbers needed:
rear cam cover gasket is 60568808
front cam cover gasket is 60568809
gasket sealant replacement 71713687 is for 4 gaskets 60513833 that go over cam bumps if they don't send you these 4 original rubber strips.

 

[richardbradford]

OK, hope you get correct gaskets now. Looks like your car was made 05-95 and based on chassis number you gave: ZAR164000*06320 273
engine: 66302 engine serial number is 0000565
version: 164k1f
spares no. 0027992

Based on chassis/VIN # these are parts numbers needed:
rear cam cover gasket is 60568808
front cam cover gasket is 60568809
gasket sealant replacement 71713687 is for 4 gaskets 60513833 that go over cam bumps if they don't send you these 4 original rubber strips.

Great Steve, you have been a star. It was a usually good Alfa specialist, Alfaman in London, I ordered them from and the person involved actually drives a 24v 164 as his personal choice, so I am confident the error was just an oversight and will now be corrected; helped by the fact that he immediately recognised the error when I said what I'd been sent. Will double check what gets sent before lifting 'the lid' on the cams again and, in the meantime, going to remove the plenum chamber and the false fire wall to check the heater matrix/pipes, and remove ALL the leaves and stuff sitting in the area - shame to waste the opportunity.

Thank you again for your help on this and all the very best,

Richard