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Discussion Starter #1
Now that my car is nearly done, I don't need the rotisserie I made for it. I've got a touch over $300 in it, not including the large industrial casters which a friend gave me, so that's the price and you have to figure out how to get it home.

It's designed to bolt into the pockets that receive the front end of the rear suspension trailing arms, and to the underside of the front cross member where the front suspension pivot "fulcrum" pins go. The front and rear accept vertical removable pieces so you can use it as either a rotisserie or as a roll-around dolly during preparation, painting, and assembly. It is designed to be used with aircraft jacks that can be bought for a little over $100 each. You can see pictures of it in use in my blog http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/1900-2000-2600-1950-1968/145807-102-rio-resto-begins.html

If no one wants it I'll end up cutting it up for the material and use the casters on something else.
 

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Don, consider it sold. I will take that thing off your hands. It seems to work pretty good, and will need some way to refinish the underside of my 2000. I can come by and pick it up, along with your hood, if you so decide to sell it to me. I can sweeten the deal by bringing along my in-tailpipe wide band O2 sensor if you would be interested in doing some on-the-road carb tuning.
Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Steve,

Cool. Where are you? Long drive from OC. Yes interested in O2 testing.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Steve,

I floated a concept a few days ago and got no replies regarding how do we price old parts?

In antique aviation, we generally start by referring to the last known price list and multiply X10. Of course, we are usually referring to aircraft built in the 40's and 50's, but that overlaps these 102s. Sometimes the last price list was published in the 60's or 70's, and sometimes it was published in the 30's or 50's. Still, it is an effort to provide an objective basis for valuing these things.

As I've said before, I MUCH prefer to trade for something, as that avoids the pain of figuring out "what's it worth".

I've got this hood and trunk lid. I don't need them at the moment, but if something ugly happens, what will it cost me to have a hood repaired, assuming it is repairable, or fabricated if I can't find one? You can see the challenge of establishing a fair value, and I'm sure we'd all prefer something equally fair.

I wish someone could turn up an archived price list for Alfa parts dating to the mid-60's when we might expect that 102 (and 106) parts were still in production and available. Failing that, the best we can do is guess at what a hood (or other part) might have cost back then. It might be informative to find out what a 105 hood would cost in the mid 60's, although the vastly greater production would probably make them cheaper than those from Touring.

My guess is that a Touring hood would have retailed for somewhere between $200 - $500 in the mid 60's. That's clearly a SWAG, but I worked as an Alfa parts manager in the early 70's and actually bought a lot of NOS parts from the factory for my first 102-04. So, the guess has a a bit of "scientific" in it vs pure "wild-***". I recall buying a new nose-grille for about $90 in 1973, and that was with my employee discount at the dealership. If a grille piece had a retail price of perhaps double that in 1972, then a hood would easily be at least the range I've suggested.

You can see what 10X produces with that estimate as a start.

I'm posting this publicly rather than a private exchange, as I'd be delighted to get unbiased comment on this.

Anyone?
 

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Don, an unbiassed opinion would be interesting (maybe someone will comment), but the actual "value" of the piece when last exchanged might also be considered. This was considably less than your 10x concept. When we first communicated regarding this, you stated "I think I paid a little over $400 each for the hood and trunk lid, but it might have been more after the freight was added in." It would sure be nice if I had something to trade, besides a parts transmission, but I have very few spares and none of significant value.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Steve,

I work with full transparency, but I have zero tolerance for low-balling. What I paid for something is irrelevant to what it is worth in the market. I'm quite happy to keep the hood against the day when I might need it. I have no motivation to sell something for less than it costs me to replace it if and when I need it. I have made a habit over the last 5 years of buying almost anything for a 102 that might conceivably be of use in the on-going maintenance of my car. Some of what I bought came at an attractive price, and others I paid more than I wanted to, but I was able and willing to put the parts aside for a rainy day.

I have shared the method used in the antique aircraft hobby specifically because it tends to de-emotionalize and de-conflict selling parts rather than barter. I am enjoying the new friends made via this Alfa, many of whom have been quite generous in their trades. Most of these were small incidental parts of relatively low value.

I am not in this for profit, and am deliriously happy to help someone out. My public question is "how do we determine an unbiased value?" No one has answered. I have a gut feeling this is because most people know that 10X times last published price will significantly increase the going price of parts. Of course, this is just one standard, and I'd be thrilled to hear alternatives.

"What is a fair price" has nothing to do with what was last paid. Using this method, if I bought a parts car for $500 and sold the engine for $500, then I would be required to give everything else away for free. That makes no sense.

Sorry if this note sounds terse. It's not intended to. I really am just floating a concept that works in a similar hobby and has helped to guide people's thinking when they deal with this issue.
 

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What is an Alfa part worth?

Don, we all share this totally foolish Alfa hobby, and nowhere in that could there be even a nod to good business sense. If we used reason we would probably never own an Alfa. They have always cost too much. They are not reliable. Their retail value is lousy. Their mileage is not particularly good. I can't give anybody one good valid reason whatever to own one except the unalloyed joy of driving it. I see you must believe me foolish to tend to give parts away cheaply or take for them offers people can pay comfortably instead of trying to make myself rich. My desire is to have others also be able to enjoy their cars. My motto is: "May your Alfa run forever." One of the most frustrating experiences I have had over the 50 plus years of my Alfa hobby was getting a "real good deal" (i.e. practically steal) from a friend on a perfectly good 2600 spider at the request of an acquaintance who assured me that he wanted me to get the car for him only so he could keep it to drive it and cherish it forever. But all that guy did was shine it up and find someone to buy it immediately from him for a great profit. He "conned" me. That "acquaintance" has tried constantly to "make it up to me" over the years since, but he got the car cheap by lying and he never need ever request my assistance in finding him another or providing for him any other Alfa or part for one. I would not even care how much he would offer -- 10 times more than reasonable or 100 times more. Have I ever "overcharged" you, or tried to base a price on what 10 times the price in 1960 would have been? I remember my first "price shock" on an Alfa when I priced a rubber trunk lid bumper for my two liter spider in 1965 that I thought would be $.10 and discovered the dealer wanted $2.75. Now, a real comparison. I had just bought in 1965 a house for $12,000 that was sold in 2008 for $440,000.00 by the person to whom I had sold the house for $14,000 in 1966. Under that comparison what should I demand from someone for a New Old Stock rubber trunk lid bumper -- merely 10 times, or 36.66 times $2.75? That 36.66 times increase is probably the true inflation price. Don't use such artificial pricing methods. Let the price always be what a friendly buyer and seller agree upon. This should be just a hobby for most of us. A hobby is a way to enjoy things in common with friends.
 

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Don, I do not mean to insult you with a lowball offer, but am only trying to impart some balance to what appears to be a perceived value that could escalate beyond $5,000. I agree with you completely that whatever price an individual originally pays for something should normally have no bearing on your asking price. We live in America afterall (Well, a lot of us do).

However, back in February 2009 when you originally responded to my appeal for a hood, you freely volunteered your purchase price to me without any poking or prodding on my part, and there was no other mention about a potential selling price. Maybe this was a leap of faith, but naïve as I am, I simply assumed that this implied a relative starting point, and the final price might be negotiated to somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000 to $1,500, just guessing. This was my logic, since I did not have any other historical pricing information. That is what has been stuck in my head since then. Was this unreasonable thinking?

So maybe you can understand my surprise when you proposed your recent valuation method. It just seems to me that if you believe that $5,000 is a reasonable price, maybe this number might have been conveyed back in February instead of the $400 purchase price. Then, if I decided that was too high, I could have continued my search for an alternate hood at that time rather than patiently waiting 22 months while you finished your car before I found out what your hood might actually cost me.

The bottom line is that I did not intend to be offensive. I was just operating with the limited information provided, assuming it had some basis in reality. I don’t want to steal anything, only make a straight-up purchase from someone who truly wants to sell, at a price that is acceptable to both parties.

You made a nice point regarding the contributors to this forum. Everyone seems like genuinely good people; being very helpful and informative, you included. There is a great wealth of information on this forum and I have learned a lot in the short time I have been involved. I don’t want to detract from the overall positive attitude. It is just that since it is impossible put an absolute retail value on this particular piece, I don’t know where to go next. I don’t want any hard feelings.
Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Steve,

One of my challenges is sorting out all of the simultaneous conversations going on in my had. I probably should not have mixed our discussion about the hood with my curiosity about a standardized pricing system. What I proposed has helped the community of antique aircraft enthusiasts find a serene and unbiased way to sort things out. That's a good thing, yes? However, upon reflection, it may be that car people and airplane people are not so much alike as one might think. No matter. My thoughts on pricing were more about floating an idea than settling on what my hood might or might not be worth.

We'll pick up the hood discussion privately. It's not of general interest.

When are you thinking about coming up?

Don
 

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Hi Don,

My local British car wrecking yard charges 70% the cost of the new part for a used part. This is true for both the older sports cars (MG, Jag & Triumph) as well as new cars (Range Rovers, new Jags). The newer models are pretty easy to get new price from the dealer. For the older models, he uses the Moss Motor's catalogue as his baseline. I believe he told me that this was standard pricing for the autowrecking industry.

A bit harder for our 2000's & 2600 as the repro market offering is not complete (i.e. you can't make one of these cars from the ground up from a catalogue like w/other cars), but at least for those parts that are available new this model may work. For those other parts that are NLA....well, like most commodities, the price of unobtanium is up these days. Although, I must say that the small community of Touring owners is especially helpful to each other which I find refreshing.
 

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Going back to the first post, I have an October 1967 Alfa price list. A quick glance, and there are several pages of 102. part numbers.
Off subject, but I am looking for a 102 cluster gear shaft with the 5th and rev. gear and a mainshaft 5th gear to convert a 4 speed to a 5 speed. [email protected] Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hello Hotlegs,

Any chance of getting a copy of the price list?

As for the cluster gear, I'm under the impression that the stuff inside a 102 box is much different from the other transmissions. I don't know this first hand but from various comments. The 4-speed was the "tunnel case", yes? The 102 box is split case, and seems to share a few bits with later split case transmissions, but not all.

I have at least two transmissions, or parts thereof, in boxes. Can you direct me to a picture in the 102 parts or transmission overhaul book for what you're looking for? Also, you might want to confirm that it will work first.
 

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This is a split case 4 speed. Back in the day, Alfa used to sell a kit using 102 parts to convert a split case 4 speed to a 5 speed. The 1300 SS and SZ used a 5 speed made up of these parts. I will post images of the Giulietta book to show what I need. It shows 102. part numbers for the cluster and
5th gear.
I will check on getting the price book copied. Scanning it would take a very long time.
 

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Hi Friends, This is probably a worse suggestions than the '10X factor' but any spare parts could be offered on ebay (or a similar site) with a low reserve. If someone decides to sell a 102/106 part they could kindly give notice on this site and a link to the auction; then let the bidding begin. Depending on the part and the demand for the part we will all know what the part is worth at that time.

There is a cool black (early or european?) radio blank off plate on ebay right now that I'd like to have...have no real use or need for; I have watched it for two months now. The lister (as opposed to the seller) is asking $500. I offered to trade some items and we went back and forth a few times before I decided I did not need another radio blank off plate.

I have a 164L on ebay right now (just ended) and apparently the sum of the parts is worth about 10X the value of the running car.
Ciao,
Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Mark,

My comments about a somewhat standardized method of pricing may be a problem that doesn't need solving. That's OK with me. The question, however, was not so much "what is it worth" as "what should one charge if someone wants a piece?". Case in point... I bought my spare hood and trunk on ebay when a guy was trying to get rid of the last of his spare parts. He no longer had a car, so had no need, and just wanted to be rid of the stuff and get back the storage space. I was the only bidder, so not much demand for this stuff, at least not just to put into storage for a day when someone might need it.

On the other hand, if my air hose mechanism bolted to the ceiling fell onto my hood or trunk, what should I expect to pay for an almost-ready-to-install replacement? Clearly, a different amount, and that's assuming I could even find one.

It's at this point that people become emotional. I was merely offering up one example of how some (not all) of the emotion has been taken out of antique aircraft parts.

Like I said, it's a problem that probably doesn't need solving.

BTW, I bought my red radio delete plate on Ebay for $90 less than a year ago, and it was right here in Carson City where I live. I'd describe it as nearly-new, with no significant problems, just needing a slight bit of touch up to the backing white/silver in two places. It was cheap because I don't need it and don't intend to use it. If I was desperate for it, something tells me it would have cost a great deal more.
 
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