[pyesnosky]

In my last post, I introduced my "new" 158 Giulietta Spider Veloce. In this one, I'm proposing a restoration "roadmap" and my goals. In reading posts by others, I've seen comments about original versus performance or reliability updates, but I haven't seen everything compiled in one place. I wrote this up for my own benefit to get my head around the project upcoming, but I thought others might find some interest and I'd certainly like to hear comments from others.

Goals

The first thing is what are my goals for this restoration? Do I want to return the car to "original", make it better than original, do modern upgrades? That really depends on my use. So here are some thoughts.

• I have no desire to show the car or enter it in any sort of judging so no need to research and place every label on every hose. I admire that dedication, but I just don't have the patience for it.
• But, I would like to have it look pretty original from the outside. Why mess with the beauty of the original design.
• I'm not going through all of this work to just sell it for profit or auction it off. I want to keep it and drive it for a long time.
• I want to DRIVE the car. No trailer queen here. The goal is to have it be a daily driver in the summer time and probably garaged in the winter unless it's a nice day.
• Because of this, I want the car to be reliable and so modern updates that significantly improve reliability are in the game as long as they can be reversed.
• In fact, pretty much any change that is subtle or hidden is game, as long as they can be reversed by removing the changed part and installing the original part.
• I'm interested in performance upgrades as well, but they need to be reversible as described above.
• Safety upgrades are one area where a permanent change is okay. Things like drilling holes for seat belts or welding in plate to stiffen up the rear trailing arm mounts are okay.

So, what does this all mean? Well to me it means having a car that retains it's value through the original engine, un-molested chassis and body and a box of parts that can be put back on the car to make it truly original. But it also means that I hopefully end up with a car that can be driven reliably, safely and without fear of being stranded. It's no fun to work on a car on the side of the road or having to wait for AAA and just hoping you have cell phone coverage to make the call.

Restoration Roadmap

Given the goals above, here is what I am thinking about as a restoration roadmap. Most of the questions below are to myself for further research, but of course comments and advice is very much welcomed.

Chassis and Body - Keep as original as possible. The only change I am anticipating here is chassis reinforcement in the rear trailing arm mounts as have been described elsewhere on the forum. Sheet metal and rust repairs done properly. No 1/4 inch thick slabs of bondo or riveted patch panels please. Nice re-chrome job and great paint.

Do folks recommend any other areas of strengthening or stiffening for safety or performance reasons?

Drive Train - I have an original tunnel case transmission 4 speed. I don't know what I have from a final gear ratio perspective but for now I am assuming I have what was standard on the Veloce. I've read about the benefits of the 5 speed and easier freeway cruising and less punishment to the engine. But, I really think I want to stay with the original tunnel case transmission. So, I believe this limits me to a 4 speed.

Are there any suggestions on how to optimize engine and drive train performance given I want to stay with the original transmission? See below on going to the 1400 kit, but if I do that, are there any recommendations regarding the transmission? Any changes suggested on the rear end?

Brakes - No changes here. Everything I have read is that the standard drum brakes on these early AR cars are fine. Given the condition of the car, I will be replacing all the brake lines and doing the appropriate level of rebuild on the master cylinder and the brake pistons themselves.

One question here is whether I should stay with DOT3 or go with DOT5 brake fluid. I have read that DOT5 is not compatible with period materials, but couldn't I just make sure I rebuild everything with materials that are compatible with DOT5? The only reason I am thinking this way is that I have read that the maintenance schedule for DOT5 is more flexible than DOT3. This is not a big issue and I can go either way. I'd like to hear opinions on this.

Tires and Wheels - It appears my car is coming with 5 Fergat wheels. This is good, but I have read on the BB that some folks consider period wheels to be not as robust and safe as new alloy wheels. So, I am considering new wheels. As for tires, I would like to keep a somewhat period looking profile. No 17 inch wheels and low profile tires. I know there are options out there so I think this is not a big issue.

Is there a consensus on an alloy wheel/tire combo with good performance but also acceptable somewhat period look? I am not adverse to a little bit more width, but I don't want to deal with wheel well rubbing or bottoming out.

Engine - Since this is a matching numbers engine, I don't want to molest it. But, reversible changes are okay. The engine is completely apart so now is the time for reversible engine upgrades. I haven't looked at the cams yet so I don't know what I have but right now I am assuming Veloce cams. From a performance standpoint, many people recommend the 1400 kit. I've read about this being done to a 101 engine but what about a 750?

Will a 750 engine with a 1400 kit and Veloce cams combined with the stock drivetrain as described above be a good combo? Any other suggestions in this area?

Intake/Carbs - Unfortunately my Veloce is missing the DCO3 carbs and the original 750 Veloce intake manifold. I think I can source these items, but these three parts could approach a significant portion of what I paid for the whole car!! I think I do need to get these items for investment purposes anyway but here's the question on the fuel delivery system.

I have heard that the older DCO3 carbs are not so great because they are sand cast (leaky?) and also because they use bushings instead of bearings there might be wear and reliability issues. Since I don't have them or the intake anyway, for daily driving, reliability and performance would it be better to get a 101 intake and DCOE carbs and go with the 101 setup on the 750 engine? Any other suggestions on the intake side of things?

Under Hood Electrical/Ignition - In this area, I am thinking about two things for reliability. First, I am considering an Ignitor electronic ignition from Pertronix. Second, I am considering putting in the Denso alternator instead of the stock generator. My goal with both of these items is to add some reliability and lessen the maintenance aspects.

I know there is some debate about these items. Comments, suggestions? Do both of these items work in a 750? Other upgrades to consider in the Electrical/Ignition area?

Other Electrical - Again, in this area I am interested in reliability and I want to try to minimize squirrelly electrical problems. I'm hoping I can have it covered by installing a new wiring harness and do a good job of installing the electrical bits and pieces.

Are there other suggestions in the electrical area? I read I think in the Benson book that some people ran a heavy ground wire from the rear battery up to the engine compartment? Is this suggested? What about fusing? I am not adverse to even putting in a modern ATO/ATC fuse block if that improves reliability. This is one item that could easily be reversed. Is this overkill?

Interior - Okay so first of all, no modern iPod equipped stereo systems with subwoofers in the back. In fact, I will most likely just remove the period radio that is in the car and put in a radio blocking plate. The only change that I am thinking about for the interior is drilling holes and putting in the proper studs for seat belts. I have read that some people argue against seat belts in an open roadster that does not have a roll bar cage, but I think I would feel more safe with lap belts. Other than that, I can't think of anything on the interior.

Is there a consensus on lap belts? Any other interior suggestions? BTW, I have read that for an open car, vinyl is much better than leather because it holds up better and you don't have the maintenance issues you have with leather in the sun? Any comments on this?

I think I've pretty much covered the car, head to toe? What did I miss? The goal is a car that is fun, safe and easy to drive and maintain. I'm thinking that if I do all of the above, I will end up with a good result. Other than biting off a lot to chew, what do you think?

Thanks for reading this long post.

Paul

 

[Brad750f]

Congratualtions on your Giulietta Paul,
I'm tying to finish my 58 750f at the moment myself. After reading your Roadmap, all that you propose sound very reasonable to insure the most enjoyment from the car, and give you best return if you ever need to sell some day. These cars are reliable in factory form with some reasonable maintenence.
I would stick with the Giulietta fuses and fuse block, I've never known anyone to have any problems with them. I would not bother with a ground cable from the battery as well. Just remember connections and ground must be very clean and secure at all points.
Brad Baum
Escondido,Ca

 

[pathung]

I concur with Brad's recommendations above, and would add the following:

Tires and Wheels: I'd stick with the original 155 cross-section tires with Fergat/Borrani wheels; they look right, and the skinny tires are crazy fun to slide around in in tight corners. They stick just fine when they need to, and are easy on the arm in tight parking spaces.

Engine: I don't know a great deal about the 1400cc kit, but through the grapevine understand that some machining of the head is required (best to confirm with Centerline Alfa); the head's originality (if it matters) would then be affected. I'm also interested in learning how the extra capacity is achieved with this kit - thinner liners? A different alternative is to keep your 1300cc on the shelf for posterity, and shoehorn a 1750 in the car for now; this engine gives you the same reliability with much more torque, and not many people can tell that it's a 1750 anyway. Does the plumbing look different?

You did not mention the exhaust system; what are your plans? I have a friend ('62 Giulietta) with a stock system, which he thinks is too quiet for an Alfa, while I have a Magnaflow, which gets a bit loud when next to concrete barriers (but lots of fun in tunnels), but I think affords me a few extra horsepowers.

 

[pyesnosky]

Patrick,

See I knew I forgot something. I have to add exhaust to my master list. (I'm a list maker and suppose that will help on this project.) I was thinking Magnaflow. Good to hear someone who has that installed.

As for the engine, I thought it was just drop in. But I did hear that you have to machine the pistons a little. Something about keeping the top piston ring from scraping off during high RPM operation. So perhaps it's not the head but the pistons that need some work. I know you can get the kit from Centerline but I also know that Spruell also has a kit. They send re-bored liners with the kit and require your old liners in return. Spruell are 50% more expensive than the Centerline kit. I have not investigated much. Will dive deep when I get to engine rebuild.

As for the tires, what, no power steering? Where do I get that kit? LOL (Kidding)

Paul

 

[pyesnosky]

Brad, thanks for the advice. Electrical is the one part that I am confident I can handle in this job. Perhaps I am just over-thinking. Good to hear the opinions of others.

Paul

 

[Brad750f]

Paul,
If your not already, get on the yahoo 750 and 101 group also. If I remember, moderator Lew Rosenburger used a Centerline 1400 kit, and the problem was insidious, in that on the bench the engine turned over by hand, but when running, the pistons hit the head. Cutting clearance on the pistons seems like the right cure, but other here know much more than I do on engine building.
Or saving your 750 Veloce motor, and picking up a good running 1600 or 1750 is an option.
In the 60's I was told that the factory full exhaust system, as well as Abarth systems, developed more power than open exhaust. I'm not sure of that claim, or the avalabilty of that system today. In 1967 my Dad's 58 750d had one cheap "glass pack" installed by the previous owner, and the sound on full throttle was marvelous to my taste. I suggest ride in as many Bay area Giulietta's as you can and buy the system you like best.
regards, Brad

 

[alfabits]

If I remember, moderator Lew Rosenburger used a Centerline 1400 kit, and the problem was insidious, in that on the bench the engine turned over by hand, but when running, the pistons hit the head. Cutting clearance on the pistons seems like the right cure, but other here know much more than I do on engine building.
Brad

I have a 1400 kit in my 101 series 1300 Veloce and it is a great conversion. You gain a little more bottom end torque which these 1300's can use. I don't know of any problems with the conversion in the 750 (others can advise) but there were none on my conversion. Don't forget to check the archives for answers to your questions, Many of these subjects have been addressed before.

From the look of the photos I have seen, you have plenty to keep you busy before you start putting any parts on the car. This will give you time to find the hard-to-find parts. Finding seats alone will be difficult. I know, I had that problem myself and I had to make some of the seat rails because after a year of looking I couldn't find any. The body work alone will be a major undertaking to do right. One suggestion, pre-fit the front grill pieces while the body work is in progress to assure perfect fit. You have a great project ahead of you. Have fun...

George

 

[alfabits]

Wheels

Oh, I forgot to attach this photo. You asked about aftermarket wheels that would appropriate for your car. I purchased a set of these Campagnolo copies. Very nice road wheels and they can use the stock 155X15 tires. - 750/101 wheels

Cheers,

George

 

[Alfajay]

I own a '63 Giulia spider that has some of the modifications that you are contemplating. So, here are my thoughts:

- Wheels. The Fergats are fine. Borranis are preferred for racing, but in the course of normal road use, you won't break a Fergat. The aluminum wheels that George recommends look terrific - they're a nice upgrade, but not necessary for what you describe your intended use to be.

- Engine. Others have covered this pretty well. One other thing: Consider the Hurlock Engineering spin-on oil filter conversion. See: http://www.xprt.net/~hurlock/alfaspin/alfadapt/alfiladap.htm

- Intake/carbs. I think I replied to this one on the 750/101 list.

- Electrical. Pertronix - yes, electronic ignition makes quite a difference and the Pertronix isn't visually obvious since it doesn't require an extra box (like the MSD). Alternator - I put a Denso alternator on my Giulia. More stable voltage, eliminates the mechanical regulator, and just a slick upgrade. See the photo below, and this thread I started three years ago: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/giulietta-giulia-1954-65/38523-installing-alternator-750-101-a.html

One other electrical mod you might consider: changing the fusebox from the pointy-ended fuses to the more modern blade-style. Purists will disagree, but 1) it isn't visually obvious, and 2) many of the electrical problems with these cars stem from the pointy-ended fuses (though poor grounds are also problematic). Something like http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/en-us/d136.html will work without major modifications.

- Safety. Sure, install lap belts. I feel naked without at least a belt. But, don't kid yourself that these cars are safe. With minimal side impact protection, a solid steering column that extends from ahead of the crossmember to your chest, no headrests, etc, you aren't equipped to come out on top when you tangle with the cell phone addicted moron in the SUV. I view driving a 750/101 like being on a motorcycle.

One last bit of advice: Since you live in the Bay Area, you have a lot of 750/101 gurus close by. Get to know Tom Sahines, Jon Norman, Dan Marvin, Laurence Anderson, Rich Ott, Patrick Hung, and whoever else I have forgotten to name.

 

[pyesnosky]

George, thanks for the wheels info and good advice on fitting the bright work as the body work is being done so everything fits properly. I talked to Daron today and I've decided to send the car to Vintage Customs for the hard stuff. We had a good conversation and I think we are on the same page with the goals.

 

[pyesnosky]

Hi Jay, thanks for the advice. Yes the spin-on conversion is on my list. Funny that you mention the fuses. I was thinking the same thing. This is a very reversible modification that has to help with reliability and if nothing else, availability of replacement fuses in a pinch. Thanks again for your help.

Paul

 

[Subtle]

Perhaps you might consider the alternator that looks like the original 28-amp generator. Classic Alfa, or Alfaholics in UK have them.

Got one for my Sprint and have had an ND on my Spider.

Agree on putting in a 1600 and keeping the 750 engine.

Electric rad fans save precious HP--Spal Fans --the 5.2 inch "puller" only weigh 1 lb each. Secure to the top part of the rad with the plastic skewers.

123 distributors are good.

The alloy wheels are replicas of the Mags used by the factory. Five-inch wide fit, 5.5s don't.

Haven't had any recent experience with the steel wheels, but those who have had in our group state that the Fergats can crack.

Vredestein Classic Sprint tires look vintage, but with modern construction have about 40 percent more traction than the best--Cinturatos-- in the late 1960s and early 1970s. That's in the wet or dry.

Considerably greater traction relates to the residual strength of old Fergats.

Did some recent track-time on my Vred 155s. Fast enough driving to get them very sticky and they did not throw any tread. Their handling was predictable, but they but they are very narrow for the track.

 

[BryanP]

thanks, Paul, for creating this thread. I bought my time-capsule '65 Giulia SS last year and have been thinking about/putting together the very same "road map" issues as you. Very glad to have the input of this board on these topics.

Bryan

 

[ShadeTree]

Paul,
You might consider installing a relay in your headlight circuit as cheap protection for your column switch.

Just my 2¢,