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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone have any first hand experience with removing a Giulietta Veloce Spider oil sump while the engine is still in the car? Can it be done? It seems as though the oil pump will keep the sump from clearing the frame. help please.

George
 

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Richard Jemison
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Pan removal

I think it will drop down fine. When the pickup clears the rubber gromet in the "upper' pan there is plenty of room then to move it back to clear.
Its not hard as I remember. That is assuming:rolleyes: that when last assembled you left out the fasteners behind the motor mounts....
 

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Hi George,

Yes, I did this about 40 years ago to my Giulietta Veloce Spider. I don't remember exact details, but I replaced rod & main bearings (with the crankshaft in place) and installed new pistons & liners. My most significant memory was of trying to keep everything as clean as possible.

Does anyone have any first hand experience with removing a Giulietta Veloce Spider oil sump while the engine is still in the car? Can it be done? It seems as though the oil pump will keep the sump from clearing the frame. help please.

George
 

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Hi George,
I used to do this for rod bearing checks / replacement in my Giulia veloce when I raced it years ago. I ran it with either a 1300 or 1600 depending on the competition. Never had any problem, but good tools with odd extensions helped, as well as a pit or trailer ( or hoist?) to work under the car. I did the job more than once with a creeper, but my eyes probably no longer have the ability to focus that close! Gordon Raymond
 

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I recently had the pan off on a 750F without lifting the motor. I think that removing the lower flywheel cover from the transmision allowed a little more room to move the sump back once lowered from the oil pickup tube. DB
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Some of you may recall my posting: "My Veloce restoration nearing completion". I was ready to start the motor last Friday decided to turn the motor with the starter to build up oil pressure before hooking up the ignition. Turning the motor cranked cooling fluid out of #2 spark plug hole. Pulled the intake manifold to check water to intake passage, all looked good. So, pulled head. Discovered #2 liner is 17K lower than the other three liners. Also, head gasket shows no discernible squish for #2. Conclusion, water is obviously poring under head gasket at #2 into cylinder (cylinder had a puddle of coolant). Research suggested I could pull the oil sump in order to have access to connecting rods so I could remove #2 piston and liner to find problem.

Well, the pan is free but won't come off. The oil pump is keeping the flange of the oil sump from clearing the front frame. Has anyone had this problem? Any other suggestions? Am I overlooking something? I would really like to keep from pulling the motor again. Help!!!

George
 

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Don't panic George,
Here are some things to look at. Is the pan loose? Will it giggle to and fro? If so, the pump pick up can get caught on the edge of the windage tray. Without lifting the engine,
loosen both engine mounts single bolts through the cars frame. Remove the clutch cover pan. Have you removed the two nuts at the back pan flange? Now with the engine loose in its mounts, jiggle the (hopefully) loose pan around and notice which way (I remember drivers side) allows the most drop or jiggleability. At this point you may need to use a wooden wedge from below to push the block (with loose mounts) in the direction that allows the pan and hanging up pump pick up to wobble off the windage tray. BE SURE you have removed all 15 nuts on the studs, AND the one nut and bolt on the passenger side hiding under the engine mount:eek:. Pop! It should drop off.
With the engine lightened by head removal, you may wish to remove the engine mounts nut and washer all together, allowing a slight lift to the block between the frame rails for even more jiggle room. Hope this helps! :DGordon Raymond
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Don't panic George,
Here are some things to look at. Is the pan loose? Will it giggle to and fro? If so, the pump pick up can get caught on the edge of the windage tray. Without lifting the engine,
loosen both engine mounts single bolts through the cars frame. Remove the clutch cover pan. Have you removed the two nuts at the back pan flange? Now with the engine loose in its mounts, jiggle the (hopefully) loose pan around and notice which way (I remember drivers side) allows the most drop or jiggleability. At this point you may need to use a wooden wedge from below to push the block (with loose mounts) in the direction that allows the pan and hanging up pump pick up to wobble off the windage tray. BE SURE you have removed all 15 nuts on the studs, AND the one nut and bolt on the passenger side hiding under the engine mount:eek:. Pop! It should drop off.
With the engine lightened by head removal, you may wish to remove the engine mounts nut and washer all together, allowing a slight lift to the block between the frame rails for even more jiggle room. Hope this helps!
:DGordon Raymond
Thanks Gordon. I have done all you suggested including loosening the engine mount bolts. I even jacked up the motor as far as it will go (a short 3/4 inch or so). The pan is completely free of the motor except where it hangs up on the pump. It's not that it wont come down past the pump as much as it won't come back (because of the pump) enough to clear the frame and come down. Are you saying I should try to tilt the engine to one side wobble off the pan? ("At this point you may need to use a wooden wedge from below to push the block (with loose mounts) in the direction that allows the pan and hanging up pump pick up to wobble off the windage tray.").

I think I will work on that idea.:)

Thanks again. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,

G
 

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Hi George,
I think you have the idea. Remember when it was assembled, the pan went straight on, studs through the block.
Any time it moves back ( or forward),{or right or left} it will hang up internally. The pump goose neck can catch on the edge of the windage tray. So... the block has to move around, just enough, so the pan can come off the way it went on, without chassis interference. Generally, it must move evenly, front, rear and both sides, as the pan studs clear the block. If it has to tip, one way or the other, it will catch. Thus my multiple usage of "jiggle"! If it clears the chassis, and can move down, the way it would on an engine stand, you've got it off. :D Gordon Raymond
P.S. This is easier than it sounds, and once you do it, like riding a bicycle, you never forget. Remember, "Patience, NOT force!"
 

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George! One more detail I forgot. Due to it's angle, the dipstick, not it's tube must be pulled out. It too catches on it's hole in the windage tray!
Sometimes memory comes back in fits and starts! Gordon Raymond
 

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I think Bill Gillham just did this in situ on a guy's Veloce up in Placerville, CA. Not sure if Bill monitors the BB though.

Andrew
 

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Discussion Starter #12
GOOD NEWS AND GOOD NEWS.
Well the good news is I got the sump off and the liner is shorter than the others. The liner was installed correctly but because of specific lack of Alfa experience I never suspected I should measure the liners length from a new 1400 kit.

One of the original liners will take the place (after re-bore and honing) of the short one. And yes, I will be replacing all gaskets.

And thanks to all for the suggestions on removing the sump. As it turned out, I ended up removing the transmission cross brace, disconnecting the drive-shaft and jacking up the back of the gearbox as far as it would go. The pan then just slipped off.

Cheers, George
 

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I love good news!

Great George! I'm happy things are looking up. Where did you get the 1400 kit with one short liner? I'm sure other readers are curious as well. The 1400 kit is a worthwhile 101, 1300 improvement, and it seems to me, if sold as a kit, rings should be gapped, pistons weight matched and other things as well. If sold as parts, then this might be left up to the builder.
I prefer to use "pre used" liners and go oversize with race engine rebuilds with custom pistons, but go over the used liners very carefully, before boring. I also cut a sealing groove in the tops of the liners. With the scarcity of very good 101, 1300, and pre '66 spider blocks, I don't want to be cutting those down to match liners! Used liners are more stable from many hot/cold cycles than new. They seat rings faster, and bore and hone more evenly than new, "unseasoned" ones. How did you end up with a short one?:confused:
:DGordon Raymond
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Great George! I'm happy things are looking up. Where did you get the 1400 kit with one short liner? I'm sure other readers are curious as well. The 1400 kit is a worthwhile 101, 1300 improvement, and it seems to me, if sold as a kit, rings should be gapped, pistons weight matched and other things as well. If sold as parts, then this might be left up to the builder.
I prefer to use "pre used" liners and go oversize with race engine rebuilds with custom pistons, but go over the used liners very carefully, before boring. I also cut a sealing groove in the tops of the liners. With the scarcity of very good 101, 1300, and pre '66 spider blocks, I don't want to be cutting those down to match liners! Used liners are more stable from many hot/cold cycles than new. They seat rings faster, and bore and hone more evenly than new, "unseasoned" ones. How did you end up with a short one?:confused:
:DGordon Raymond
Gordon,

I purchased it from someone on the Alfa Romeo Giulietta Types 750 and 101 Yahoo group site. It came with a Alfa project car someone purchased and he was parting everything out. The set was new and I did check ring gap etc., but not liner lenghts. Go figure. :confused: I have four original liners to choose from so I should be able to find a good one.

Thanks for the help...:)

G
 

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George great news that you have the sump off. I too have struggled in the past so now whilst any of my engines are out to be rebuilt, I remove the block studs for the engine mounts and heli-coil the holes and then use cap bolts for the mounts. In this way I can put the crane on the engine, lift slightly, slacken the cap bolts, slacken the mount nuts and wiggle the engine to my heart's content and end up with the sump on my chest.
 
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