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You can never have too much performance!

Ah, but we always want MORE!

More money, more free time, more blue skies, clear winding roads, and steady oil pressure!

I've built cars with power to weight ratios on par with superbikes, they were ALMOST fast enough. ;)
 

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Are you asking about the underside of my Spider in the photo on the previous page? If so, the "shed loads of RHS" actually weighs quite a bit less than the standard chassis brace you can get from IAP. I used to have one of those on the car. Both the brace and the materials in the photo were actually weighed.
Yes, however I wasn't being at all critical or judgemental. Shed loads is simply the Australian SI unit for lots :)

I'm interested in how and where you have braced and cross braced as i'm considering how i might improve the our duetto. It's in pieces at the moment and the RHS you have under the axle, between the rear trailing arms intererests me. The box section below the rear 'seat' needs rebuilding on my car and as such i was considering how it might be repaired better ie. RHS between the innersills, tied to top of trailing arm mounts. getting over the axle is an issue - you appear to have gone under.

Any other photos, drawings or thoughts would be appreciated.
 

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Yes, however I wasn't being at all critical or judgemental. Shed loads is simply the Australian SI unit for lots :)

I'm interested in how and where you have braced and cross braced as i'm considering how i might improve the our duetto. It's in pieces at the moment and the RHS you have under the axle, between the rear trailing arms intererests me. The box section below the rear 'seat' needs rebuilding on my car and as such i was considering how it might be repaired better ie. RHS between the innersills, tied to top of trailing arm mounts. getting over the axle is an issue - you appear to have gone under.

Any other photos, drawings or thoughts would be appreciated.
I didn't take your question that way so, no worries. :) I just wanted to let you know that even though it may look like a lot of added metal in the photo, it's actually not that much.

I'm guessing when you talk about the axle, you are referring to the drive shaft? I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there's not enough room above the drive shaft for a cross piece to go in there without doing something like raising the level of the parcel shelf behind the seats through major surgery.

I don't want to hijack Jetmore's thread on reducing weight so I think I'll start another thread to describe the bracing and add a couple more photos.

Jetmore: removing the sound deadening material from the floors and firewall was mentioned. I had that done on my Spider and it was replaced with a significantly lighter material. You really need to have the interior stripped out to do it right though.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Weight removal

Based on the feedback, i think i will start with molding and making a thin balsa-cored fiberglass hood, trunk lid, bumpers and then, doors.

I am getting estimates all over the board on weight, but it seems i can pretty easily save 20 pounds on the hood, 15 on the trunk lid, maybe 100 total on the doors, and 50 on the bumpers, while maintaining the same outward appearance.

I am keeping my a/c, as i hate being hot, but i will also remove sounds deadener, the oil pan guard, and cut out the spare tire bucket, and possibly change seats to a race breed type seat, if i can save 25 pounds per seat. I think i can also remove the steel plate in the trunk.

I am not trying to be obsessive over the weight issue, but, this is roughly 250 pounds of weight, and i think it will feel more responsive. When i need a battery, i will get one of the light weight ones, in place down low, behind the passenger seat.

When i add the 50 shot of nitrous, should push me back in the seat. Any specifics on removing the doors and bumpers on an 87 grad? What is the easiest way?

Thanks a lot.
 

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If the '87 bumpers mount the same as '84, the rear is just 4 bolts each side for the back, with two big screw-head looking guides holding the rear bumpers sides in place. Not too hard to remove if you remember to slide backward out of those guides. I'm interested to see the hood and trunk you're talking about. Please weigh the before and after components so we have solid numbers to go by. I'd love to lose more weight on mine too.
 

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Alfa Spider Weights Through the Years

If the '87 bumpers mount the same as '84, the rear is just 4 bolts each side for the back, with two big screw-head looking guides holding the rear bumpers sides in place. Not too hard to remove if you remember to slide backward out of those guides. I'm interested to see the hood and trunk you're talking about. Please weigh the before and after components so we have solid numbers to go by. I'd love to lose more weight on mine too.
A stock Spider hood weights 26.4 pounds.

Weights of Various Spider Components:

I thought that I would start a "Spider Component Weight" chart as I slowly weigh individual components. I will be using a digital home scale for weighing; fairly accurate as far as I can tell.

-1979 Instrument Panel (bare, no gauges, glove box door, end/defroster vents intact): 9.8 Lbs.

-Sump Guard: 11 Lbs.

-Chromodora Turbina Wheels (no wheel weights): 12.4 Lbs. Each. 49.6 Lbs. total for four.

-Curved Neck Radiator (lower hose still attached, w/cap):
13.2 Lbs.

-Trans Mount (S2): 4.4 Lbs.

-1974 S2 OEM Front/Middle Exhaust: 25 Lbs.

-1974 S2 OEM Rear Exhaust: 9.8 Lbs.

-1983 S3 Rear Bumper Assembly (includes shocks, mounts, side extensions): 25 Lbs.

-S2 Heater Box (defroster ducts not included): 10.4 Lbs.

-S2 Plenum Panel: 4.2 Lbs.

-Hood: 26.4 Lbs. (includes hinges and hood side of latch).

-Trailing Arms: 16.6 (pair).

-Rear Suspension "T"/Trunnion: 20 Lbs.

-Top Frame: 25.8 (no canvas).

-OEM CISMAN Rear Muffer: 10.5 Lbs.

-Centerline Stinger: 5.5 Lbs.

-Size 34 Duralast Battery: 37 Lbs.

-Odyssey Battery: 15 Lbs.

-Series 3 Gas Tank Steel Plate (above tank in trunk): 15 Lbs w/bolts.

Alfa Spider Weights Through the Years:

I was curious about Spider weights through the years, so I pulled out some old Road & Track magazines and found this information. We of course don't know if the fuel tanks were full or what, although I do believe R & T only filled the tanks 1/2 way.

1959 Alfa Giulietta Spider: 2,050

1965 Alfa Giulia Spider Veloce: 2,150 Lbs.

1966 Alfa 1600 Spider: 2,195 Lbs.

1977 Alfa Spider: 2,430 Lbs.

1978 Alfa Spider Niki Lauda: 2,550 Lbs. (from Motor Trend magazine).

1982 Alfa Spider Veloce: 2,495 Lbs.

1983 Spider Veloce: 2,460 Lbs. (my stock personal car; 1/2 tank of gasoline).

1989 Alfa Spider Quadrifolgio: 2,560 Lbs.

1990 Spider Veloce (Alfa brochure spec.): 2,558 Lbs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some other Alfa Romeo weights:

1965 Alfa Sprint GT: 2,200 Lbs.

1966 Alfa Giulia Sprint Speciale: 2,273 Lbs.

1967 Alfa GTV: 2,230 Lbs.

1971 Alfa 1750 GTV Trans Am Race Car, driven by Horst Kwech: 2,245 Lbs.


An excellent older thread on Reducing the weight of the Spider:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/165249-reducing-weight.html
 

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Thats really interesting. I had the impression that the S4 like mine, loaded with goodies like electric windows and power steering was much heavier than early models but there is not that much difference it seems.
 

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2372 lbs if the bumper was on, and that's with a full fuel tank, full methanol resorvoir, full size spare tire, upgraded stereo with amp, and some stuff inside.
Alfa weight 14oct12.jpg
Lightening as pictured includes: aluminum flywheel, no gas tank cover plate, sound deadening removed from passenger compartment and trunk, carpet removed from trunk only, and no rear muffler.
 

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Digging this thread back from the dead to share some (valuable?) info: Weighted my S3 at 2060 lbs wet, without driver (curb weight.) That was with the quarter windows (10 lbs both, not each!) and the spare tire (35 lbs), lose those and she is an emaciated 2015 lbs.

1628126


I hereby claim the title of lightest all-metal spider, a dubious honor: She's devoid of any creature comfort. No trunk floor or bumpers, pathetic little 10 lb. battery, 3 gallon fuel cell in the trunk (just enough to get to the local autocross and back), drilled and dimpled/flared trailing arms, drilled and dimpled/flared middle sills, aftermarket seats, no roof whatsoever. The only added safety being a little roll bar and some added chassis structure.

I think 2150-2200 lbs. may be as light as you can get in a "reasonable all-metal car" (defined: A de-bumpered track-day special with a soft top, light wheels, really light aftermarket seats, and a roll bar) as expertly demonstrated by @wingwalker. This may be a disappointment for some; The spider is often painted as a very lightweight sportscar, when in reality MGs of the same time period go down to 1800-1600 lbs without much strippin' required, and many Lotus can dance around the 1400 lbs. mark bone stock.

Think about it this way, I went through this extreme so you won't have to. 🤣
 

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Update: She's now at 1980 lbs! Happy to have hit my target, but again - Not sure I can go much lighter than this.
So do you have a list of everything you took off? I’m curious to get my spider weighed soon and have a similar target weight.

My list is as follows:
Stripped interior
Sparco race seats
Interior sound deadening material removed
HVAC delete (a/c and heat)
No spare or Jack
5lb battery
No front bumper
Light weight flywheel & clutch
Lightened engine rotating assembly
Gear reduction starter
Light weight alternator
No brake booster/ Tilton pedal box
Side pipe exhaust
Light weight aluminum air box
Aluminum radiator
No top
Light weight brakes (Alfaholics)
13lb wheels

To do:
No front spring pan (Alfaholics kit) + small springs
Watts link with T-bar delete
Rear coil over spring
Hydraulic hand brake (delete parking drums)
Light weight trailing arms
Fuel cell (delete fuel tank plate)

Added items:
Roll bar with petty bar
Turbo
Intercooler + piping
 

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I imagine that if you went to a rack & pinion steering system you could lose several pounds. Fiberglass hood & trunk lids would be an obvious one. Polycarbonate front windshield would be good for a few pounds, as would a carbon fiber driveshaft.

However this weight loss thing can be taken too far. If the effect of pushing on the gas is that the body twists, have you really achieved that much? Remember even crappy modern tires are way griper, than the rubber poly bias tires that these cars were designed for.

Most people who have installed the Spider chassis stiffener felt it made the car faster. I've wondered if you could laid down carbon fiber sheets over the unibody and vacuum mold it to the sheetmetal, if you could get a good bond between the metal and the carbon fiber that should make the tub stiffer correct?
 

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So do you have a list of everything you took off? I’m curious to get my spider weighed soon and have a similar target weight.
@nealric Unfortunately I don't have a list of everything I took off. We rescued the car off a junkyard so it was very rusty, a lot of the rusty metal I've chopped off was not replaced. It's also easy for you to get caught on the weighing of individual take-off parts, then taking the car to a truck scale only to be surprised of how heavy it is.

I do know what the car had or lacked between weight-ins, and from experience your list may get you to dip under 2100 lbs. and maybe even to the low 2000 lbs, but no way it will put you in the 1900s (and that is not a bad thing, more on that in a sec.)

You will notice that our mod list is very similar (great minds think alike!) But the key here is that I went with the lightest, biggest carburetors I could find and removed weight from the stock manifold, you are adding to the EFI setup a snail, intercooler, a bunch of piping, oil capacity, a more complex roll bar, etc...

Starting point was a 1986 graduate, so no A/C, audio, or power steering. At 2060 lbs:

  • No roof of any kind
  • Wolf Metal dimpled middle sills
  • DIY dimpled inner sills
  • Cobra Clubman racing seat on DIY sliders
  • DIY drilled & dimpled trailing arms
  • Duracell Ultra AGM (24 lbs)
  • Mille Miglia mags
  • Sound deadening removed
  • Alfaholics little spring kit in the front (spring pan delete, $$$, will not do it again)
  • Deleted rear swaybar
  • Front and rear bumper delete (an easy 100 lbs. right there)
  • Trunk floor cut off, replaced by a flat piece of very thin steel (don't tell my wife what happened to the file cabinet)
  • Fuel tank plate deleted
  • 2.5 gal. fuel cell
  • Wilwood brake booster delete kit (from a BMW 2002, chasebays makes this part.)
  • No wipers
  • No wiper fluid reservoir
  • Small coolant reservoir, plastic
  • YZF R1 carburetors on a custom intake manifold
  • Deleted fuel ECU, all associated wiring
  • Deleted fuel return circuit
  • Swapped fuel pump for a motorcycle interrupter pump (no return circuit or FPR needed.)
  • GTAm side pipe
  • Naturally-occurring weight-reduction by copious amounts of iron oxide
At 1980 lbs:

  • Wiper motor delete, wiper mechanism delete
  • Removed all useless bracketry from the engine bay and cowl area
  • Deleted VVT mechanism (new cams IN!)
  • Swapped cam cover for an earlier GTV unit
  • Spare tire, jack delete
  • Removed sun visors
  • Cleaned up more of the wiring
  • Other stuff I am probably forgetting, will add to the post later
Now like @Milanoguy said, I don't think this is bad news: I'm running N/A and have MAYBE 140-150whp, it was a rusty POS and much of the metal removed itself from the car so sometimes it does get a bit weebly-wobbly going over bumps (when the alfaholics suspension doesn't want to send the car to the stratosphere. Stuff is STIFF.).

With the power you will be putting down, I would focus on a healthy 2100 lbs. and not get upset if I end up at 2200 lbs, but managed to sneak in a chassis brace and a chunkier roll bar there. These cars are old, safety and stiffness is good!

Forget about the hydraulic hand brake, make sure your fuel cell has more than 2.5 gallons, and reconsider the side pipe if you like your neighborhood or racing events where they actually check for decibels. Although you will be turbo, so maybe it will help quiet down things and add in some interesting noises. Wapooosh!

BTW- I am following your build thread. Keep up the good work!
 

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@nealric Unfortunately I don't have a list of everything I took off. We rescued the car off a junkyard so it was very rusty, a lot of the rusty metal I've chopped off was not replaced. It's also easy for you to get caught on the weighing of individual take-off parts, then taking the car to a truck scale only to be surprised of how heavy it is.

I do know what the car had or lacked between weight-ins, and from experience your list may get you to dip under 2100 lbs. and maybe even to the low 2000 lbs, but no way it will put you in the 1900s (and that is not a bad thing, more on that in a sec.)

You will notice that our mod list is very similar (great minds think alike!) But the key here is that I went with the lightest, biggest carburetors I could find and removed weight from the stock manifold, you are adding to the EFI setup a snail, intercooler, a bunch of piping, oil capacity, a more complex roll bar, etc...

Starting point was a 1986 graduate, so no A/C, audio, or power steering. At 2060 lbs:

  • No roof of any kind
  • Wolf Metal dimpled middle sills
  • DIY dimpled inner sills
  • Cobra Clubman racing seat on DIY sliders
  • DIY drilled & dimpled trailing arms
  • Duracell Ultra AGM (24 lbs)
  • Mille Miglia mags
  • Sound deadening removed
  • Alfaholics little spring kit in the front (spring pan delete, $$$, will not do it again)
  • Deleted rear swaybar
  • Front and rear bumper delete (an easy 100 lbs. right there)
  • Trunk floor cut off, replaced by a flat piece of very thin steel (don't tell my wife what happened to the file cabinet)
  • Fuel tank plate deleted
  • 2.5 gal. fuel cell
  • Wilwood brake booster delete kit (from a BMW 2002, chasebays makes this part.)
  • No wipers
  • No wiper fluid reservoir
  • Small coolant reservoir, plastic
  • YZF R1 carburetors on a custom intake manifold
  • Deleted fuel ECU, all associated wiring
  • Deleted fuel return circuit
  • Swapped fuel pump for a motorcycle interrupter pump (no return circuit or FPR needed.)
  • GTAm side pipe
  • Naturally-occurring weight-reduction by copious amounts of iron oxide
At 1980 lbs:

  • Wiper motor delete, wiper mechanism delete
  • Removed all useless bracketry from the engine bay and cowl area
  • Deleted VVT mechanism (new cams IN!)
  • Swapped cam cover for an earlier GTV unit
  • Spare tire, jack delete
  • Removed sun visors
  • Cleaned up more of the wiring
  • Other stuff I am probably forgetting, will add to the post later
Now like @Milanoguy said, I don't think this is bad news: I'm running N/A and have MAYBE 140-150whp, it was a rusty POS and much of the metal removed itself from the car so sometimes it does get a bit weebly-wobbly going over bumps (when the alfaholics suspension doesn't want to send the car to the stratosphere. Stuff is STIFF.).

With the power you will be putting down, I would focus on a healthy 2100 lbs. and not get upset if I end up at 2200 lbs, but managed to sneak in a chassis brace and a chunkier roll bar there. These cars are old, safety and stiffness is good!

Forget about the hydraulic hand brake, make sure your fuel cell has more than 2.5 gallons, and reconsider the side pipe if you like your neighborhood or racing events where they actually check for decibels. Although you will be turbo, so maybe it will help quiet down things and add in some interesting noises. Wapooosh!

BTW- I am following your build thread. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, that’s helpful. I’m certainly not trying to hit an arbitrary number for its own sake, but sub 2,000 does have a nice ring to it. Agree that an extra 100+hp more than makes up for an extra 100lbs.

Curious why you didn’t like the Alfaholics pan delete. Problem with the kit itself or just overpriced?

As for hydraulic handbrake- it’s partially a work around for the Watts link lacking bracketry for hand brake cables. May also mess around with some drifting if I can get some skid pad time. I’m considering a second handbrake caliper so it’s still a completely redundant system. Both watts and handbrake have already been purchased. Install was delayed by the new motor and paint job.
 

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Curious why you didn’t like the Alfaholics pan delete. Problem with the kit itself or just overpriced?
Price was really steep, and it's really not built for street cars. It's a very harsh ride.

Also - I don't like how the lower bar goes through the spring seat but there is no bearing or anything facilitating the rotation of the assembly. When the spring is compressed the seat will spin relative to the through bar. I am a little concerned about wear on such an expensive part.

1640769
1640770



I've been hitting it with some silicone every now and then. Hope that will do something to help.
 

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Here's another weight reduction strategy: I could shorten the rear overhang of an S2-S4 spider by about a foot without a lot of headaches, if the car is debumpered and running on a small fuel cell.
 

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what part?
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made this for my ecotec conversion.. weighs in at 7 poiunds.. still need to make the mount for the stricker plate and hood front hindges.. take better photos sunday with better light
20190604_190129.jpg
20190605_115404.jpg
 
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