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80 bones, easy to change, why not? ciao, chris
 
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Attention, these are not square-cut springs, a few comments I dug up:

"Bought some KYB RA1001 springs last week, they have turned up showing exactly the same issue as the Lesjofors, the square cuts on the spring are not parallel...unlike the OE spring."

"Careful with lesjofors. If you follow the 164 Facebook you will see I have had a problem with their 12 valve springs. They are cut slightly too short meaning the strut just doesn't sit quite right when reassembled."

"If you draw a straight line from the square cuts on these springs you will see that only one is cut parallel, the OEM one, that is the problem."

"They have a slight bowing to them, as they aren't compressing evenly across the strut mount, don't get me wrong, I'll use them anyway, but they aren't made right anymore and when you offer one like this to an OE strut, the differences are quite noticeable."

Partscontainer (ebay) offers the 4200702 for $46.95 with free shipping.

When you say "looking bad" do you meant drooping, weak, or just rusted?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Attention, these are not square-cut springs, a few comments I dug up:

"Bought some KYB RA1001 springs last week, they have turned up showing exactly the same issue as the Lesjofors, the square cuts on the spring are not parallel...unlike the OE spring."

"Careful with lesjofors. If you follow the 164 Facebook you will see I have had a problem with their 12 valve springs. They are cut slightly too short meaning the strut just doesn't sit quite right when reassembled."

"If you draw a straight line from the square cuts on these springs you will see that only one is cut parallel, the OEM one, that is the problem."

"They have a slight bowing to them, as they aren't compressing evenly across the strut mount, don't get me wrong, I'll use them anyway, but they aren't made right anymore and when you offer one like this to an OE strut, the differences are quite noticeable."

Partscontainer (ebay) offers the 4200702 for $46.95 with free shipping.

When you say "looking bad" do you meant drooping, weak, or just rusted?
Looks a bit rusty. And the car sits low I think one may be failed based on how low one side sits. I haven’t fully investigated yet. Just want to be prepared for when I replace the struts.
 

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I suspected that. Mine have peeling paint and thus some rust too, but the car sits nice and level. A couple of years ago I bought an extra set of complete CDS fronts with low mileage from a gent in CA, paint is intact, will eventually put them on and derust and paint the old ones. If you have just one that's bad, you might consider getting a used original from APE. As far as I know 1991 to 1995 are the same, BUT, Alfa did use different springs vendors in the life of the car, so there are probably variations to be found. Personally I wouldn't be happy with non-square cut springs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I suspected that. Mine have peeling paint and thus some rust too, but the car sits nice and level. A couple of years ago I bought an extra set of complete CDS fronts with low mileage from a gent in CA, paint is intact, will eventually put them on and derust and paint the old ones. If you have just one that's bad, you might consider getting a used original from APE. As far as I know 1991 to 1995 are the same, BUT, Alfa did use different springs vendors in the life of the car, so there are probably variations to be found. Personally I wouldn't be happy with non-square cut springs.
I’d be happier with non square cut springs than a spring that I suspect is cracked or failed. I’ll have to take the wheel off and investigate all I know of when I hit a bump in that corner it feels not very good.
 

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I’d be happier with non square cut springs than a spring that I suspect is cracked or failed. I’ll have to take the wheel off and investigate all I know of when I hit a bump in that corner it feels not very good.
Been my general experience that springs seldom fail, The get rusty and break apart and the like. If you had a broken spring, I dare say you'd know it. But again, these are just my experiences. I'm gonna speculate you have a strut issue moreso than a spring fault. I had a front on Rossa blow out and it sat low and was very noticeable in the corners. Having said this, the rears are very easy to change and as you're in there, I suggest doing every part you can lay hands on. If memory serves, you don't need a compressor for the rears, they just unload and come apart with no tension.
 
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Soft or broken springs don't generally change the ride that much. It's much more likely the damper in the strut that's the problem. At least if the spring breaks at the end, pretty common. A spring broken in a mid coil will be obvious, the car will droop that side and probably will not be safe to drive.

Measure the distance from the ground to the center of the rear wheel arches. They should be within a quarter inch of each other ideally. On flat and level ground like a garage pad. It is rare for both rear springs to fail,by the exact same amount. Mind you, if not broken a spring should be serviceable unless quite rusty. Rust changes the spring rate very slowly as the metal dissolves away.

When the rear springs rusted so badly on my 164 we fit new ones with new struts. The handling changed quite a bit. The movement of roll stiffness from rear to front as the rear springs weaken is very, very slow. When you fit new springs the effect is quite enjoyable, assuming your old springs are in fact losing spring rate. The car suddenly feels much more sprightly.

Dampers (the "strut" part) are very durable but the rears take a beating generally. Rear spring travel is greater and the load variation they handle is much wider than for the fronts. Rear spring rates are much lower than front spring rates.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Been my general experience that springs seldom fail, The get rusty and break apart and the like. If you had a broken spring, I dare say you'd know it. But again, these are just my experiences. I'm gonna speculate you have a strut issue moreso than a spring fault. I had a front on Rossa blow out and it sat low and was very noticeable in the corners. Having said this, the rears are very easy to change and as you're in there, I suggest doing every part you can lay hands on. If memory serves, you don't need a compressor for the rears, they just unload and come apart with no tension.
Makes sense. I have rebuilt struts for the rear as well as new bolts and strut mounts. I already changed the bushings in the rear. The car drives ok the back seems a little low. However when I hit a bump the rear ended shudders horrendously. It almost feels like wheel hop at speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Soft or broken springs don't generally change the ride that much. It's much more likely the damper in the strut that's the problem. At least if the spring breaks at the end, pretty common. A spring broken in a mid coil will be obvious, the car will droop that side and probably will not be safe to drive.

Measure the distance from the ground to the center of the rear wheel arches. They should be within a quarter inch of each other ideally. On flat and level ground like a garage pad. It is rare for both rear springs to fail,by the exact same amount. Mind you, if not broken a spring should be serviceable unless quite rusty. Rust changes the spring rate very slowly as the metal dissolves away.

When the rear springs rusted so badly on my 164 we fit new ones with new struts. The handling changed quite a bit. The movement of roll stiffness from rear to front as the rear springs weaken is very, very slow. When you fit new springs the effect is quite enjoyable, assuming your old springs are in fact losing spring rate. The car suddenly feels much more sprightly.

Dampers (the "strut" part) are very durable but the rears take a beating generally. Rear spring travel is greater and the load variation they handle is much wider than for the fronts. Rear spring rates are much lower than front spring rates.
I have a rear rebuilt strut for the side that has an issue I have to rebuild one for the other side still. But when I hit a bump with the right rear side it feels like the wheel hops up and down quite aggressively. Also the rear is sitting very low Id have to measure to be sure.
 

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Wheel hopping is a bad damper not a bad spring.

Springs hold up the car (or not if broken or sagging). Dampers control spring movement.

Without dampers the springs would oscillate indefinitely after going over a bump.

When the wheel hits a bump the spring absorbs the energy from the upward wheel movement. Once all the energy has been absorbed into the spring then the spring (being springy) tries to redeliver the same energy into the wheel by pushing it down. Apart from friction the wheel would then extend the spring past the normal position by the same amount as the bump compressed it in the first place. Repeated ad infinitum.

The damper absorbs some of the energy from the spring, slowing its movement and converting a lot of the energy into heat in the damper oil. Most of this spring energy is absorbed by the damper on the downstroke. Ideally, all of the surplus energy has been absorbed by the damper by the exact moment the wheel returns to its normal position, no further extension. Competition cars do this. Road cars can be a bit more complicated or the ride would be unpleasant.

The American term "shock absorber" is a misnomer. The spring absorbs the road shock, by definition. The damper absorbs that stored energy in the compressed spring and by doing so prevents the spring from releasing that energy instead by pushing the wheel down past its normal position.

Now the engineering is much more complicated than my description and suspension control is still very much a black art but I've described the concepts.

Defective springs deliver a totally different set of symptoms than do defective dampers. Most often it is the damper that wears out, for obvious reasons. The spring has no moving parts to wear out....
 

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Makes sense. I have rebuilt struts for the rear as well as new bolts and strut mounts. I already changed the bushings in the rear. The car drives ok the back seems a little low. However when I hit a bump the rear ended shudders horrendously. It almost feels like wheel hop at speed.
Thats not a bad spring thats a bad shock.
 

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Agreed however the car is also sitting a good inch maybe inch and a half lower than it should in the rear
bad struts(s) - dampers - shox - pick your poison, tired springs and who knows what else... will cause the lowered rear. ciao, chris
 

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George your Q still got electric Boges installed? Sounds like bad struts. Had strut issue with my 1990 164QV. one front and one rear strut would not compress (like in a hardened Sport mode) and other front and rear struts in a softer Auto mode. If you push auto sport buttons, does it change anything?

I have installed temporarily Koni struts and B&G 30mm lowering springs so I could drive car. I have most of the seals, retainers and strut oil to do rebuild on Boge control dampening system CDS struts. You owe me the promised bung fittings and Shrader valves for the project. NO Hurry as my knee surgery has stopped all thought of pushing on with Boge rebuild process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
George your Q still got electric Boges installed? Sounds like bad struts. Had strut issue with my 1990 164QV. one front and one rear strut would not compress (like in a hardened Sport mode) and other front and rear struts in a softer Auto mode. If you push auto sport buttons, does it change anything?

I have installed temporarily Koni struts and B&G 30mm lowering springs so I could drive car. I have most of the seals, retainers and strut oil to do rebuild on Boge control dampening system CDS struts. You owe me the promised bung fittings and Shrader valves for the project. NO Hurry as my knee surgery has stopped all thought of pushing on with Boge rebuild process.
I totally forgot about your bungs. I have them I just have to cut them I’ll do that this weekend sorry Steve. Sport vs auto doesn’t change a thing. I am going to replace the rears with rebuilt ones I just wanted to determine if the spring was bad before I had it all apart.
 

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I have installed temporarily Koni struts and B&G 30mm lowering springs so I could drive car.
Steve, I'd love to get your description of how Konis/B&Gs ride and handle as well as where you have the firmness set on the dampers. If you've posted this somewhere already let me know. Thanks and hope your knee is doing ok!
 

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I found, when I changed the LS struts from stock to Koni, that if I adjusted, with much comparison driving of the two cars, the Konis to pretty much match the actions of the Boge struts on my 91S in Sport setting on the same roads/curves/bumps/driving technique, the Konis ended up being set to approx 3/4 stiff. In other words, for both front and rear Konis, about 13-14 of 18 adjusting knob flats (around the perimeter of the knob).

This turned out to give the LS great road feel and response in the curves, easily matching the S, if actually, maybe a little better. The LS was equipped with S springs all around, and also to match the S, the same aftermarket stabilizer bars front and rear, and the same 16 inch wheels and Michelin tires.

This made for a good comparison study, changing nothing but the Koni settings. I came away a happy camper. Of course, we do like the Sport setting of the S, having no use for the soft setting. Some feel otherwise.
 
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