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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Rear Indicator Lights Not Working After Auto To Manual Conversion;

OK, this is another weird one that has plagued the 1995 manual-converted car, ever-since I got it back from Texas... Everything worked when I went down there, but then just as soon as the auto tranny and pedal-box was converted to a manual pedal-box and tranny and I swapped the engine, no more rear indicators/hazards/flashers!

The front indicators work individually as well as when triggered by the emergency flashers, as well as when combined with the flasher button.

Two differing symptoms though -

1) When I turn on the left turn indicator OR the right turn indicator, the front indicators flash fast (as do the turn-signal indicator on the dash), but the rear doesn't work - as if it has dead bulbs at the rear! FLASHES FAST!

2) When I turn on the hazards with the flasher-button, the light on the flasher-button operates at normal speed, (as do the left and right front indicators, as well as the two flasher indicator lights on the dash), but the rears still don't work. FLASHES AT NORMAL SPEED!

3) When I turn the left or the right indicator on, we are back to the condition stated in point number 1 above - fast flashing left or right - front ONLY and a fast indicator light on the dash (left or right), but now as soon as I press the hazards button, they all slow down to a normal flashing pace (the light on the hazard button, the two indicator lights on the dash as well as the two front indicators), but again - NO REARS!

We've gone through the obvious things - bulbs, fuse number 15 by the driver's left knee and the top-left relay by the drivers left knee.

We have also traced power FROM the rear TO the front - checking all along the way from the rear indicator bulbs- all the way forward through the rear fire-wall, under the rear passenger seat and side-sills, along the front door-sills, up under the passenger-side to the 3 relays there on the right next to the glove-box and then we jumped a bit over to the driver-side and found our power "signal" from the rear there.

What makes it really difficult is that the fuse panel on these cars is almost like a circuit-board as such - the fuse on the front does not necessarily correspond with a wire popping out on the other side of the board to back-probe.

I'm stuck - any suggestions please?
 

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Another easy solution

This should just do the trick for ya JJ! Just kidding man, hope you get that pasta rocket going soon, want to see it down here in the bay area sometime and get a ride in it!
 

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AR164 91-93 vs 94-95 models wiring

Craig FYI the 94-95 models wiring system not the same as that 91-93 system. There isn't any N44 control unit etc.
 

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On '94-'95 cars, the directional signal control unit (flasher) is N13. It controls all 4 corners. N44 (rear light control unit) on earlier cars is very similar in terms of functions (it also manges rear brake lights) to N13.

For '94-'95 rear signals, N13 sends the flashing signal through the instrument panel C10. The front signals do not go through the panel. So, the first question is whether you have an instrument panel with the correct signals connected?

Try turn on the emergency without switching on the ignition key, now do the rear lights flash? If yes, then the problem is most likely at the instrument panel connection. If still no rear signals, then the problem could be relays I102A and I102B.

The fast flashing speed is due to the "lamp out detection" feature on the N13 - it just means it has detected some bulbs not working!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the feedback guys - Craig (yeah - it's a 24 valve car...) Lenard (you smart-arse...)

Bob, I did verify operation of the hazards with the ignition off and the key removed - they do the same thing, fronts only - STILL no rears - and everything flashes at normal speed for the flashers...

So, scrap the N44 connector and go after N13 I guess. Exactly where is that located again?

Today I will also plug the original instrument cluster back in from the old automatic setup and see what it does - just for ****s and giggles. I don't expect anything "ooh-aah", since everything works perfectly with the manual dash that I plugged in from a European 94/95 Q (the gauges, the warning lights - everything seems to work.)

Only the Check-Engine warning light looks like a little fuel injector squirting (it is on right now due to the "no "signal code...) There is a traction-control light that is on from time to time (towards the left) - I have to check and see what it is from my car that drives that light on the Euro Q dash any way, so I'll swap it back out again today...)

The connection from the rear is good up to say the front door-sills, but HARD to verify "good" all of the way in to the fuse-panel via the dash(everything is packed in so tight, in-tact and together there.) Maybe feeding power in to the circuit from the rear fails as a test at some or other relay or connector, because it shows up as continuity, but fails as a normal function at that particular point going the other way (at say at N13) if there is a problem somewhere there...)

Any other thoughts guys?

We didn't have the dash out. I did have the instrument cluster out and some of the relays by the driver's right knee - that's about it for under the steering column. I had the entire up-right section with the climate-control, the stereo and then the entire center console out as well. Everything down low around the ECU, auto control unit (now removed) and the airbag brain was/is pulled out.

I also had to go and jump/remove the one relay or something that locks out the starter when the auto shifter is not in "Park" - can't remember if we finally found the problem by the relays at the drivers right knee or over to the right of the glove-box - we hunted there as well for the lock-out at one point.
 

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N13 is the "relay" (it is actually a flasher control unit) at the top left corner of the main fuse panel G1. Incidentally, I'm looking for a replacement N13 (due to a stupid mistake :eek:)! So if anyone has a good used one for sell (yes, I know I can order a new one), please PM or email me!

A few more background questions and comments:

1. Are the brake lights working? The brake light control also goes through the instrumental panel so you might want to check that too!

2. Are you using the original main fusebox G1? If not, perhaps you have one that is wired differently!

3. I believe your flasher control unit N13 is OK since it flashes the front lights. N13 has only left and right outputs (no front and rear) so if the front lights flash the problem should be after N13.

4. If you have taken out some driver right knee side relays before, perhaps you plug in some wrong relays for I102A and I102B.

5. If not the relays, then I still think it is likely the instrument panel - perhaps the Euro instrument panel is wired differently!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
If N13 is the flasher relay by the drivers left knee on the top left corner of the fuse-panel then it is the same one that mentioned in my original post we already sapped out with a known good unit... I am also of the opinion that it is good since it works the fronts - it is as if the connection to the rear is broken - the way the fronts flash fast is as if the rear bulbs are blown...

It's not seeing the rears at all! Where is the connection for the rears to the fronts to the flasher-relay (after the relay...?) There must be something that got disturbed in the process (say by the driver's right knee...)

We are using the stock fuse-panel/board - I have never even had that open...

Brake lights are working now. Removing the automatic pedal-box, we had to weld the tab that holds the brake-light switch on to the manual pedal-box and I simply plugged the original switch back in and now the brake lights work just fine.

The tail-lights also work 100% (when you turn the headlights on.)
 

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Do the instrument panel directional indicators flash when the front directional is flashing?

It's not seeing the rears at all! Where is the connection for the rears to the fronts to the flasher-relay (after the relay...?)
The flashing outputs from N13 come out at connectors A and I of fuse panel G1.

If you get to the back of the instrument panel C10, you can checking the signals below. You should see the signals from N13 at connector A pins 1 and 3. If you do, see whether you get output signals from connector C1 pins 1 and 3 for the rear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Oh yeah, they do - like I mentioned above - the dash signal indicators flash fast with the front indicators - left and right - and they flash at normal speed with the hazard button light and again the fronts...

Thanks, I am going to check signal to-and-from these connectors today...

I've been chewing on this a great deal and when I really think about it; the rears have connectivity ALL OF THE WAY TO THE BRAKE LIGHT-SWITCH and all of the way to the head-light switch...

The rear does not have seperate orange signal lights - it has four bulbs - two to a side - and those all light up with the head-light-switch and go all-four full-bright with brake activation...

The signal-stalk turns the fronts on (and sends signal/power to the flasher relay), as does the hazards-button... The break has to be somewhere after the flasher - where it is supposed to split signal back to the tail-lights!

The activation-switch that allows one to release the automatic car from "Park" is gone with the automatic pedal-box - I tried plugging that back in, but still nothing! The more I think about it, the problem lies right there by the pedals somewhere, because from there on back there is continuity all of the way to the tail lights (again, head-lights/tail-lights work, brake-lights work etc...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
You should see the signals from N13 at connector A pins 1 and 3. If you do, see whether you get output signals from connector C1 pins 1 and 3 for the rear.
You must mean "pins 2 & 3" that's where I ended up finding the input signals to the instrument cluster on connector A, so yeah - it works there...

I couldn't get anything on connector C1 - there was nothing - I checked it on the connector-side, I checked it on the dash-pin side (with A plugged in and turn-signals activated...) I even plugged it in and back-probed it on the connector-side - there isn't anything ANYWHERE on C...

Also, I plugged the old instrument cluster back in, but the problem remains the same.

I checked tail-light bulb-operation against another 1995 LS that happens to be down here right now and here are some additional points to ponder - assuming known-good operation on that car;

There are two bulbs to a side - 4 in total - each with 2 filaments - fulfilling ALL head-light/tail-light, 4-way emergency flasher and turn-signal functions. The same bulbs/filaments that provide brake lights, also provide flasher and turn-signal functions.

There is NOT a seperate turn-signal circuit (at least not from say - the front doors on rearward), so basically - if the brake-switch sends power to the rear then the turn-signal has/should have the ability to do so as well (no break along the way...) The disconnect is somewhere close to the front!

With hazards on: All 4 SHORT filaments light up!
With headlights on: All 4 TALL filaments light up!
With turn-signal activated: Both SHORT filaments on a particular side flash!
With brake-switch activated: All 4 SHORT filaments light up!

Naturally, with say the headlights on and stepping on the brake and the turn-signal on, all 4 filaments in both bulbs on any given side, are in operation!

On my car;

With hazards on: - NOTHING -
With headlights on: All 4 TALL filaments light up!
With turn-signal activated: - NOTHING -
With brake-switch activated: All 4 SHORT filaments light up!

So, power is making it from the headlight-switch to where it needs to go and power from the brake-switch is making it to where it needs to go! It is the "interfacing" of the hazards/4-way flashers and of the flickers/blinkers/turn-signals (where-ever they are meant to intersect/T-in/connect to the circuit go from there to the rear), where there is a break of sorts...?
 

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Yes, I meant "pins 2 & 3" - I got it right in the connector picture but typed it wrong!

As you found out, the rear light bulbs have two filaments so they are actually "two lights in one bulb". The "tall" filaments are for parking lights so they come on and stay on when you switch on the lights. The directional and brake share the same "short" filaments and they have separate paths to feed power - first to the instrument panel then through the I102A&B relays and finally to the bulb short filaments. Since, both directional and brake go through the instrumental panel/cluster, it is somewhat of a mystery why the brake light works but not the signals. But, IMO, problem seems to be at the instrument panel.

When you press on the brake, see whether you get 12 volts at connector C1 pin 1 and 3! Perhaps the instrument panel is missing another control signal that tells it to bridge the directional wires to the output. But without documentation on the internal of the instrument panel, it is like a black box!

If it is my car, I would just (use wires to) jumper connector A pin 2 to connector C1 pin 1 and connector A pin 3 to connector C1 pin 3. This will bypass the instrument panel and pass the directional signal to the relays (the brake light do this also). However, there probably are some reasons why the directional signal go through the instrument panel - at least one reason is to light up the directional indicators but I don't know whether there is any other design reason to make the signal go thru the instrument panel!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
If it is my car, I would just (use wires to) jumper connector A pin 2 to connector C1 pin 1 and connector A pin 3 to connector C1 pin 3. This will bypass the instrument panel and pass the directional signal to the relays (the brake light do this also). However, there probably are some reasons why the directional signal go through the instrument panel - at least one reason is to light up the directional indicators but I don't know whether there is any other design reason to make the signal go thru the instrument panel!
So, I finally had some time to get back on these issues again and we are ALMOST there! BlackAlfa, you're right - the jumping of the pins as described above gets me close, but it does present other issues. First - the good news: I plugged the old instrument cluster back in and everything works 100%, so I know that there is not any weird path/connectivity issue via the pedals or somewhere else that has gone wrong!

Problem is that it is the old automatic cluster with the " P R N D 3 2 1 " screen and I really wanted a manual cluster in there. I am also somewhat partial to the European 260 kph dials and would like to make it work if at all possible! (Cool fuel injector graphic for the CEL light etc and also no auto tranny light or any of that.)

So, next we jumped the two sets of pins as suggested above (also leaving each original path of the wires intact - so we spliced into the paths) and the indicators worked 100% without everything being plugged into the back of either dash! Brake-lights worked, all four indicators worked.

Next I plugged all of the connectors back into the European dash, but now all four indicators flash simultaneously for either side. (Turn-signal stalk turned on for the LEFT or the RIGHT - all four flash at the same time!) Brake lights work though! I tried disconnecting the plugs from the back of the dash one at a time and there is only one that allows the turn-signal functions to return to normal when unplugged, but now the brake-lights don't work - that plug HAS to be plugged in!

I then tried to brake connectivity for the spliced wires - the portions that continue on through to the rear of the connectors (but leaving the jumpers - as described above - in place), but now the turn-signals still work fine with the connectors plugged in, but the brake-lights stopped working again. We are so close - anybody care to help me thin through this some more!?
 
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