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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone,

I just did a R134a conversion on my 91 164 QV. I changed expansion valve, condenser, dryer, compressor, all O-rings and flush every hose and the evaporator. I pulled vacuum and filled 1200g R134a. Everything is working fine but i wonder if the fan behind the condenser and the radiator should work all the time when AC is on. 5 sec after i press "Auto", the fan kicks in and stays on until i press "off". If i look at the specs of the pressure switch at the side of the dryer, then the fan should stay on because i don`t think that the system is working under 11 bar (160psi)

pressure switch specs (approximately):
compressor off: about 2,5 bar (36psi) or 28 bar (406psi)
fan kicks in at: 15 bar (218psi)
fan deactivated at: 11 bar (160psi)

I also don`t know if the fan goes off when reaching a preset speed. I have a one-speed-fan. Should the fan stay on all the time when AC is on?

Thank you and kind regards from Europe
Alex
 

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The same relay that triggers the compressor should also run the fan. Are you sure the compressor is cycling off? Maybe your system never gets up to pressure?
 

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Did you drain the compressor of its oil and replace it with Ester oil? The other much more labor intensive option is to completely flush the WHOLE system and use PAG oil, But either way.... You CANNOT just put R134a in an R12 car. If you did that, than your compressor is not long for this world, completely destruction WILL result. No oil will flow through the system, R134a WILL NOT circulate the original oil.
Charles
 

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But Mad North-Northwest
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R134a runs a bit higher pressure than R12 IIRC. If the high side pressure stays over 160 psi your trinary switch will just keep the fan on. So either it's hot out, or it's possible you may have slightly overcharged the system.

Cheat sheet with approximate numbers below. I'd put some gauges on it, see where you're running high and low. But if it's cooling okay not sure you have a problem.

1635501
 

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Sounds like you changed or purged everything that would have had R12 in it. Did you add/use Ester oil or PAG oil in the compressor?
I just drove my 164L today and radiator fan ran all the time. We have 90F ambient temps today so HOT. I came home and added a 12oz can of R134a and fan stayed on as high side pressure staying well above 160 and 215 psi.

Point of information the compressor clutch relay and cooling fan relay are separate relays but both relays controlled by trinary switch on the receiver dryer when a/c auto button engaged.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The compressor is new and filled with 135ml (4.5 OZ) PAG 100 Oil. Due to the fact that the evaporator and the lines are flushed multiple times and everything else is new icluding all O-rings, the PAG Oil should not make any problem I think. Yesterday late in the evening when it was not that hot outside the fan went off. So i guess that on hot days the fan is on all the time. Also the self diagnosis delivers zero errors. Is there a aftermarket fan which makes less noise? I have the fan from the picture attached. It has the OE Number 60510080. Thank you all for the help.
 

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134 is less efficient than R12 so the condenser needs the fan to run more often. As long as it cycles and the compressor cycles and you get cooling it's all working as well as it can. For a full upgrade you need a larger condenser.
 

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Might as well chime in here. My '92 S (=QV) has of course the 2-speed fan typical of US specs. It also has an upgraded super quiet Harrison compressor SP15 compressor (fixed swash plate held between the opposing ends of double pistons by a pair of shoes and two steel balls); refrigerant is 134a and new barrier hoses and a parallel condenser were installed. Like other BBers I (thanks Alfisto Steve for the tip for wiring!) I've added an led in the cabin to blink when the radiator fan clicks on so I am pretty much always aware of fan, or no fan. In my case when the AC is on the fan cycles on and off, sometimes triggered by the pressure, sometimes by the fan-temperature switch in the top of the radiator if engine temps approach 100° C. So the short answer: my fan is pretty independent, off and on during AC use (low speed only)—I'm happy about that as a fan on and roaring all the time would be pretty annoying to me.
 

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There have been a few threads on taking the fan apart and replacing the bearings. I believe Alfisto Steve posted that info and others has completed that work as well. It is possible your needs service in this way, but they are a quality fan that lasts a very long time. Good to hear the oil situation was properly sorted.
Charles
 

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I don't know where in the EU you are but here are two listings for your 60510080 fan: alfa 60510080 | eBay It is different from the one we got in the NA spec 164.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you all for the help,

my AC is working great and the fan goes off in the evening when its not that hot outside. So i guess everything is OK. Maybe I will replace the bearings of the fan. Mine produces a high pitch tone. Theoretically I should only hear the air passing through the radiator?
 

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A noise like that is definitely not normal for this fan. I would think the bearing replacement Alfisto Steve has posted would cure it. There have not too many, if any reports over the years that I can recall of completely failed cooling fans, just bearing noise issues and those are not impossible to replace.
Charles
 

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Chassy he has a Euro fan motor See picture above) not the same as our USA fan motors so doubt repair process the same as mine.
 

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Can I ask what oil goes in the164 R134 compressor as standard? Have acquired a spare compressor and looking to service it before it goes on the car - oil change seems to make sense before it goes on the car.
 

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Makes you wonder... is the USA fan or the Euro fan better, more heavy duty or whatever and how hard it would be put a USA spec fan into a Euro 164 and vice versa. So many versions of 164 parts makeup, also makes you wonder if the modern Alfa sedan, the Giulia is as diverse around the world in variations of components, but that is a different conversation altogether. (Can you tell I am developing an itch for one of those)? When you live with an Alfa for so long...
Charles
 

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Driving wise, I prefer the 164 to the Guilia. Drove a Veloce Ti, 280bhp as standard, and while higher spec than the 164 on every level, from a driving point of view it felt rather dead to drive. Could never get used to the non-cancelling indicators though could sort of grow used to the dead-feel electronic power steering and slight power delay. Like so many modern cars, it is just clinical. In terms of a race, that Guilia would leave any 164 eating vanishing exhaust fumes but pure performance has never been the real nature of an Alfa.
While it is brilliant Alfa have gone back to RWD, for me it is a backward step they have put the gloves, surgical mask, ear protectors and fun deflectors firmly on. Even the totally mad QF version must suffer these traits and no wonder so many get written off - 510bhp and no real sense of where the front wheels are pointing or what the car is doing is a recipe for the scenery - as many have discovered.
For me, the best Alfa would be a 4wd 164, bored to 3.5 litres with more body-roll control and wider tyres and bigger brakes. Though for the same money of doing that you could buy a used Jaguar XFR, with 550bhp and a car that is both massively capable and still alive.
 

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Can I ask what oil goes in the164 R134 compressor as standard? Have acquired a spare compressor and looking to service it before it goes on the car - oil change seems to make sense before it goes on the car.
PAG oil
 

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Gubi, do you have the “ Pressure vs Temperatures “ chart for R-12? I believe my old (new to me) 86 Quad still has the R-12. That would be most helpful.
Thanks,
Mike
 

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But Mad North-Northwest
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I do not, sorry. You may be able to find something if you search.

For original R12 systems there's typically a sight glass on top of the receiver drier. If you see bubbles in the sight glass it's underfilled, and basically you just fill R12 until you're only seeing liquid there. I don't know if the S3 has a sight glass, though.
 

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Thanks Gubi. Yes it does have a sight glass. The a/c seems to be working. Any way it blows cold. Don’t need much in Alaska. I have a borrowed set of gauges and just wanted to check it out while I have the gauges, but have been hesitant to hook them up to the compressor if I don’t know what pressures I’m lookin for. I try to live by the old adage “ if it’s not broke, leave it alone”. So I will take look at the sight glass looking for bubbles and see what I find.

Thanks again,
Mike
 
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