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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone experienced a 164 racing?! I have a spare 164QV for parts, which actually runs well. The thought struck me to throw in a roll cage, and try out some racing. Any thoughts? :)
 

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Go for it! I've actually investigated the possibility, and it seems like the 164 should be able to be pretty fast. It weighs just slightly more than a 75 (Milano), and has good power. It can be made to handle very well (for a FWD car). About the only problems are that you will need to upgrade the brakes for racing, and you need to find a racing class that willallow you to be competitive.

See the other thread about this subject for more details about others who have done this. There are a few 164s racing in the UK.

Cheers and good luck!
 

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What "figure" are you looking for?

weight? 164L - 3300 lbs., 164S - 3395 lbs, Milano Silver ~ 3084 lbs., Milano Verde ~ 3200 lbs.

But remember that the 164 is front weight-biased, while the Milano is almost 50/50. It is hard to compare the two...kind of like comparing Apples to Mozzarella di Buffala!!:D
 

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I think that a bone-stock Verde (with the sunroof, spare tire, A/C, extra body parts, etc.) does weigh over 3100 lbs.

If you have a look at the 'European Car Magazine' article and the 'Grassroots Motorsports' article from a few months ago (sorry, my copies are loaned out right now or I'd check), they quoted the weight of a Milano Verde at close to 3200 lbs.

That weight is probably with a full tank of gas, but it is close enough to illustrate that the 164 and Milano are pretty close in weight. The 164 has a much heavier interior and can be lightened significantly by removing things like the heavy seats, the dash and HVAC, radio, speakers, carpets, headliner and insulation, door panels, etc. Also, removing the A/C plumbing and mechanicals, the airbag and other bits, and substituting a different exhaust system, lighter wheels, etc would most certainly shave some weight too. Of course, a rollcage does weigh extra, but every racing vehicle must have one of those.

Bottom line is that I think the 164 could be lightened more easily than a Milano (75) because there are so many heavy components in stock form. A racing 164 could come in at under 2900 lbs., while a racing Milano would likely weigh about the same.

Just my theory, however. Don't forget that the Milano would enjoy better 'corner-weight' balance with the front-engine rear-transmission and clutch. The 164 will alwys have to overcome the FWD issue and the front-weight bias.

Cheers,
 

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Hi Alex,

I had my Verde weighed at a previous AROSC event. It is a full-complement Verde, i.e. ABS gear, full interior, sunroof, all glass present, all A/C parts, stereo, wet etc.

With me in the car, 2980lbs.

I believe Larry's racing GTV6, which is stripped of interior bits, plexiglass, etc weighs in the region of 2,600lbs wet (est.)

A stripped 164 (not 94-95) could probably be brought down to the 2,900lbs level. The only reason I speculate that the 94-95 model years can't be brought down to that weight is because the doors have lots of extra strengthening in them that could easily add 100lbs more than their older siblings (91-93).
 

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Nizam,

I have absolutely no reason to doubt you. I am just going by what was published. Frankly, I had thought that the Milano was a lot lighter than what I read because of the apparently very lightweight construction of the car and the flexibility of its body panels.

But, regardless of whatever it weighs, I think that the 164 should do OK in racing if given the right modifications and raced in an appropriate class of cars. As the 164 gets older, racing one becomes a more viable option for the average racer.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any idea how much weight/power other contemporary FWD racing sedans are running in the various race series have? I am thinking of cars like the Saabs, Volvos, VWs, Hondas, Audis, etc.

Cheers,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the input guys. However, since I swapped my Triumph Dolomite for a race-ready Spider, I have shelved the plans of turning my 164 parts car into a racer.

(cheap 164QV for sale, RHD, "almost" complete, location: Denmark :D )
 

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Just adding a data point on weight.

Nizam you have a weired light weight milano. My verde without me without spare, clean trunk, clean glove compartment, still weighted 2960 on Steve Hamilton's 4 corner scales if I remember it right. I do have shankle streets torsion bar and springs and front bar .. maybe they are havier?

On the street with me, and my average goodies, spare, 1 bottle of spare oil, cable, duck tape etc, about 3280 or so, and that number was obtained almost a decade ago when I was 20lb lighter... :) (hint hint! a nother way to reduce the weight!)

Back to 164 racing, i think the UK article sez the stripped down 164 weights about 2600 lb... but don't take my words for it.

I think it was Carl's 164 that did extremely well at ARA's autox a while back. The advantage of torquey FWD pulled the car thru very tight turn when us the milanos had to slow down to turn.

Jess
 

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Adding to the confusion...

My 75 T weigh almost exactly 2500 lb. All original stuff still there, i.e. not lightened.

A 164 weigh a lot more. A friend race one, always complaining about the weight...
 

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Mats (?),

Your car is euro spec. The doors have no side impact beams, and you also have euro bumpers. Your 4-cyl engine also weighs about 60 lbs less. Oh yeah you don't have ABS and PS pump I think.

Zamani
 

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***? Is there no escaping you Zamani? ;)

If you were racing a 75, wouldn't you ditch the heavy US bumpers? I would...

In race-tune a 164 is still heavier then a 75.
 

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Chip,

Yes the front doors have side impact beams. Also ditch those ugly US bumpers on your race car. Kelly still has a set of euro bumpers. I can negotiate the pricing for you.

Mats,

So what turbo should I use for my 3.0?
 

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Fellows, I have raced and weight neither car, but I have parted out both. SO I can tell you what weighs what. Exactly.

The 164 has Heavy bloody accesories. Just the rear bumper (USA) weighs 89 pounds. The front weighs only 15 pounds so I would leave be. Hood: 122. Doors weigh 137 pounds each; driver weighs 142 (go figure). Seats (front) are a whopping 65 pounds each the rear is a feather at 12 and 15 pounds.
AC and heating all together around 250 pounds.
Get rid of the 53 pound Trunk and the 97 pound sunroof, and you got yourself a kick *** race car; and screw the weight balance:)

The Milano on the other hand was made out of recycled Pepsi cans it feels like since everything weighs half the above values. The hood is 77. The doors I have not weighed yet but I can carry two at a time when I needed help for the bloody 164 ones.
Front bumper: 117 Rear: ?

After all was removed, the 164 could be moved by 1 person.
The Milano felt the same.

I really do think that what makes the Milano heavy is the Steel in the chassy, and the heavy De Dion, setup which, though alluminum still, covers a lot more area than the drivetrain of the 164. Think about it; the 164 has almost no weight for the rear supension. The Milano may be more balanced but it has the huge DeDion bar to cope with and the much larger transmition. (or is it my imagination?)

Bottom line: Must be nice to have an extra LS lying around collecting dust; strip it and race it Jorgen!!!
Make us proud man!!!!
Cheers
 

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I'll ask how much the racing 164 weighs and we'll know for sure. A stripped 75 TS weighs 2100 lb.

Zamani: you mean two turbos? Gimme a target HP number... :)
 

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Tony Soper in the UK raced a 164 for a long time. (The yellow car...) 1040 kilos - that's what? 2285 pounds with a full cage...!

With full cage I am gong to be lucky to hit 2300 in the Milano and you guys see what i am doing to it!

What makes a lighter race car at the ed of the day is not how light they are starting out, (like a tin-can Milano), but how much you can remove from a car (like from a porker such as a 164!)

I can BARELY pick up a 164 front door by myself! Fiberglass/carbon panels, side-impacts removed, all glass replaced with plexi, the bumpers, the seats (they're heavier than a mother!) The dash - all of it - I can see 2200 pounds.

Believe me - I have toyed with the idea for a long time (I was even sitting on te donour car for a long time!)

The full-race 156 back in SA is a DREAM to drive hard on the track - FWD or no FWD. It is fast! With a 3.7 in it, the thing is down-right scary even on a tight track like Zwartkops. I can see a lightened, full-race 164 with a 156 6-speed conversion (such as what I am doing on the 3.45 road 164 right now), a mean Glenwood 3.7, an LSD and off you go to pick on pretty much anything out there!
 

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........

I really do think that what makes the Milano heavy is the Steel in the chassy, and the heavy De Dion, setup which, though alluminum still, covers a lot more area than the drivetrain of the 164. Think about it; the 164 has almost no weight for the rear supension. The Milano may be more balanced but it has the huge DeDion bar to cope with and the much larger transmition. (or is it my imagination?).......
Cheers
Milano, being RWD, also requires more rigidity than a 164. As the 164 has everything up front and the rest simply follows behind, it doesn't need the same stiffness in the chassis. Also, the Milano is all Alfetta underneath, dating back to the early '70s. 164 design is at least a decade later so more rigidity is achieved with less metal.
 
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