Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi Guys,

Hope somebody can help me answer a few questions, on engine peripherals.

I have a 3.0 Verde motor that I'm considering selling. One inquiry prefers it be as complete as possible. When I bought this unit a while back, there was a box of goodies that I may have to track down from the seller. Not sure that's gonna happen, quite yet.

Missing is the alternator and ECU. I have extra Jetronic ECUs from GTV6s... would those be a direct swap? I have extra GTV6 alternators... is there a difference there?

I have removed the 3.0 flywheel to use on my 24v LS motor conversion. If I gave him a flywheel from a GTV6 2.5 to use on the 3.0... do you see a problem there? I still have the 3.0 starter, and some 2.5 starters... if the 2.5 flywheel works on the 3.0, do I need to swap the 3.0 starter for the 2.5 starter??

Did the 3.0 Verde motor use exactly the same ECU as the Jetronic on the GTV6 2.5? Or did they switch to Motronic for the Milano Verde? If there was an overlap in the Verde production run... is there a clue on the motor that might ID which version was used on that motor, without tracking down the ECU that came with it originally?

If they both used the Jetronic ECU, is it just a matter of remapping a 2.5 ECU to make it work on a 3.0? If so, are the original Bosch ECUs re-mappable? Or are the two close enough that it doesn't much matter?

Lotsa questions, I know. But if you can help with any of those, it would make my life so much easier!

Thanks a bunch, in advance,
Peter
 

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,684 Posts
Answers

See in red below:

I have a 3.0 Verde motor that I'm considering selling. One inquiry prefers it be as complete as possible. When I bought this unit a while back, there was a box of goodies that I may have to track down from the seller. Not sure that's gonna happen, quite yet.

Missing is the alternator and ECU. I have extra Jetronic ECUs from GTV6s... would those be a direct swap? NO

I have extra GTV6 alternators... is there a difference there? NO

I have removed the 3.0 flywheel to use on my 24v LS motor conversion. If I gave him a flywheel from a GTV6 2.5 to use on the 3.0... do you see a problem there? Yes, both fitment and balance weight

I still have the 3.0 starter, and some 2.5 starters... if the 2.5 flywheel works on the 3.0, do I need to swap the 3.0 starter for the 2.5 starter?? They are the same

Did the 3.0 Verde motor use exactly the same ECU as the Jetronic on the GTV6 2.5? Or did they switch to Motronic for the Milano Verde? If there was an overlap in the Verde production run... is there a clue on the motor that might ID which version was used on that motor, without tracking down the ECU that came with it originally? No you need 3.0 ECU

If they both used the Jetronic ECU, is it just a matter of remapping a 2.5 ECU to make it work on a 3.0? If so, are the original Bosch ECUs re-mappable? Or are the two close enough that it doesn't much matter? No againHowever, The 3.0 can be made to run off of the 2.5 ECU
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Richard!

Sounds like you know your stuff. Your answers seem to line up with those I got on the Milano forum. So, I think I have a pretty good idea of what steps I'll need to take.

If I end up short on some bits, I may check back with you to see if you have some extras. I have 2+ GTV6 bone cars, if that's ever of help to you.

Cheers,
Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
The main difference on the 2.5 to 3.0 is really early or late wireing harness. GTV6 up to 84 was one way and for 85-86 and Milano there were some changes (all 2.5 here). The big difference in the 3.0 ecu is the redline (over rev cutout) is at 6500rpm where the 2.5 is at 7000rpm.

If you are in the process of doing an engine swap the least headache will be to use a complete engine wireing harness out of a 3.0 car. As Richard notes above the accessories will all swap just fine between the Milano and GTV6 (early or late). When you go to the front drive cars is when you start having problems with swapping accessories.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Thanks Zig,

Good to know. From what all I am gathering: the Verde engine should not be too big of a project... that's the one I'm passing off to someone else.

On the 24v conversion (the project that applies totally to me)... will be a very major piece of work. 164 'Q' FWD motor into a RWD GTV6 engine bay.

I've reserved the nightmare project for myself... and given the mildly disturbing dream to the other guy. Guess who's the masochist, in that scenario?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
353 Posts
Try to keep the 24v wireing harness for that one... or go to an aftermarket injection system. Either one is better than the L-Jet as they are newer and/or have fewer restrictions

Also check here; ALFAGTV6.COM • Index page

here; http://alfagtv6.com/msdocs/3L_update_Conversion.doc

here; AlfaGTV6.com ~ Home of the Alfa Romeo Transaxle check the tech listings on the left side of the page.

I don't know if you are in the AlfaGTV6.com forum or not , but what is there is a bit more technical than here.

hth,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Zig,

I'm wading into the shallow end of the pool in doing the 24v into GTV6 conversion. I won't know if I'm over my head until further in. I have nearly all of the bits I'll need, but when you include paint color change, detailing, etc... it will be a long slow process.

I do check in with AlfaGTV6.com, so I'll check those links as well.

Cheers,
Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Hi Gabor,

My understanding is that the only option on headers for the 24v conversion into a GTV6 is a set of custom made ones. Don't know of any aftermarket pipes that would work? Since the 24v motors only came in a FWD layout (sideways)... and RWD (inline) ALFA V6s only came with 2.5 and 3.0 12v motors... the only time that unique combination might show up, is when some crazy like me makes the attempt. So, I'm thinking the market volume to tool up for those would be too small for a manufacturer to consider.

The GTV6 I've reserved for this project came with a deluxe set of stainless steel pipes, end-to-end. So, I'd like to retain as much of those as possible. The exhaust manifolds on the 24 LS motor seem to be welded pipe (like headers), as opposed to cast iron. And the 24v motors have oval exhaust ports. So it would seem that a portion of the stock manifolds might be of use to start, nearest the motor?

There are people here in the US and South Africa who have done several of these conversions. So, I was hoping to rely on their advice. The book that will be coming out soon from Veloce Publications (ALFA V6 Tuning) may have a page or two on this topic, as well?

I'm not a mechanic and have never tried this before, so I haven't arrived at a decision on that quite yet. As the total project will be long and patience-testing, I was leaving my final decision on headers till toward the end of the project.

If you have any input to share on this dilemma, I'm all ears !!

I've owned several 2.5 GTV6s, and currently have a GTV6 with a 3.0 Verde engine in it. I've never owned a 164 (12v or 24v)... so the 24v 3.0 LS/Q motor, that I now have, is a very new animal to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,907 Posts
See the MSWord document below @ alfagtv6.com

http://alfagtv6.com/msdocs/3L_update_Conversion.doc
Well, thats good info for the 164 12V conversion! On the 24V conversion a lot of other measures have to be made.

Planetmojo: There are not a lot of 24V exhaust headers for GTV6 conversion available, but I have seen two.

One is from Glenwood. SA, which is more or less for racing with a big bend of the tubing inside the engine compartment. The tubes merging before engine support.

The other is from Beninca, AUS. Straight tubes downwards merging before engine support. They say its making good power with 3L or 3,2L engines.

Lately a 3rd possiblity has emerged, and even a budget one: using the headers from model 166 3L(well, from Europe). These are tubular, with good size and can be (reasonably easily) modified to fit the GTV6.

I am on a similar path of engine conversion, but have not decided. Seems the two above would be best for most power, and the last one for the road.

G.K.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Guys !

Gabor... I am just looking to create a streetable GTV6. I may track down some 'Q' intake runners, and perhaps even consider some GTA intake cams (depending on what the budget looks lie at that point). I'm not going racing. Actually, I can get all the speeding tickets I need with a stock 2.5... but I figure this may be my last GTV6, so I'll be trying to make it 'ultimate' for my purposes.

You will likely get to that point before I do. If you find out more on this question, please let me know what you find out. I think JungleJustice may be the most schooled in those conversions (here in the US), and he had mentioned 2 variations that he had tried. If you find out more on the 166 3L option, that may be closer to what I need, since I won't be going racing.

250+HP in the lighter GTV6 body should give me all the muscle I could ever use. Likely a 100HP increase over the stock 12v 2.5.

Since we'll both be going down the same path, we should keep in touch as thing progress. We may each have some extra bits to swap as we discover what all will be required.

Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,907 Posts
Well, there could be some opportunities of info and parts exchange, however standard parts probably are easyer to get here as the newer models were not sold in the US.

My engine is a 3,2L 156 GTA engine(250hp) going into a GTV6 racer. I am not in a hurry to make this mod as the 24V cars still struggle to get our lap times(with 3L 12V), however the writing is on the wall and the change has to come latest to next(`12) season. In the meantime I am collecting the necessary parts for the build. Also looking to increase power to 300Hp which would look good on a 980 kg car :)

Here a couple photos of the 166 3L headers. It seems to me that the rear(L side) could fit well but that the front(right) would need some adjusting. But this I have not tried, so its speculation based on the photos.

G.K.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
Both sides need adjustments. I have the converted headers for my 24V, I can post some pics.

Only thing is the factory header flanges were welded on the inside. I will have them re-welded on the outside and grind the weld beads down for better flow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Well, there could be some opportunities of info and parts exchange, however standard parts probably are easyer to get here as the newer models were not sold in the US.

My engine is a 3,2L 156 GTA engine(250hp) going into a GTV6 racer. I am not in a hurry to make this mod as the 24V cars still struggle to get our lap times(with 3L 12V), however the writing is on the wall and the change has to come latest to next(`12) season. In the meantime I am collecting the necessary parts for the build. Also looking to increase power to 300Hp which would look good on a 980 kg car :)

Here a couple photos of the 166 3L headers. It seems to me that the rear(L side) could fit well but that the front(right) would need some adjusting. But this I have not tried, so its speculation based on the photos.

G.K.
Thanks for the pix, Gabor,

You're right... our last ALFA here in the US was a 164 model. Some of the conversion bits you may need will be from a GTV6 oil sump and oil pick up, as I understand it. Plus, poss a flywheel from a Verde 12v. A pedal box and master cylinders from an Alfetta Coupe. And maybe a few other bits. Don't know how easy those are to come by in Europe?

I have a couple of GTV6 bone cars, in case you ever need any GTV6 suspension parts and such.

How much do you think those 166 manifolds go for, over there? Used vs new?

There is a place very near me that builds rally cars for Subaru's racing team. I realize they may not be at all familiar with A-R motors... but they seem nice enough guys to allow me to pick their brains for a few minutes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Both sides need adjustments. I have the converted headers for my 24V, I can post some pics.

Only thing is the factory header flanges were welded on the inside. I will have them re-welded on the outside and grind the weld beads down for better flow.
Thanks also Evo,

Did your 24v conversion go into a GTV6, or a Milano body? Did you have to source your manifolds from Europe? Used or new... how much did you end up paying, if you don't mind me asking?

What other options did you consider before making your decision on the 166 setup?

Would love to see pix and a quick run down on what alterations were necc?

Cheers,
Peter in Vermont
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,907 Posts
Thanks for the pix, Gabor,

How much do you think those 166 manifolds go for, over there? Used vs new?
Oh, should not be so difficult to get a pair from Sweden, at a price of about 100$ pr. unit. You can check this page and order. Use the translate function. Bakre= rear, framre=front grenrör=header etc

Link to a list of different company sources:

http://www.bildelsbasen.se/?link=list&ggl=s16&searchmode=1&vc1=104&pc1=101&vc[0]=104106100&vcx1=1171&vcx2=1030&pc[0]=101102100

Well, for some reason the link wont work even its correct. Maybe the link is too long. I can send the link in PM if you cannot come through.

G.K.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Thanks Gabor,

I checked that out, and bookmarked it for when I am closer to ready. Your link worked fine, and your clues were very helpful. $200 for a pair seems fair.

My mechanic will be checking the motor and extra 24 v heads over, this Spring, as to their general health. Then we'll look into swapping out the oil sump, flywheel and such. Next will be the intake modifications. The headers will likely happen nearer to the end. By then I should have a better idea on which way to jump on which header design makes the most sense for me.

Cheers, Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks Evo,

Were those also 166 24v headers? Does your pic show before or after the mods you had mentioned?

Did you choose these because they seemed the easiest solution? Cheapest? Other?

Had you looked into some other header designs, and decided these had the best performance?

Since I will have to make this choice at some point down the road... thought I'd pick your brain to get a running start.

Is the design above a 2 piece or a 4 piece assembly? I have some Shankle headers for 12v 2.5/3.0 motors, that have a second segment below what bolts up to the heads. All 3 pipes, on each side, continue into the lower section. I can include pix for anyone, if I'm not being clear there.

I'd, of course, prefer the best performance if the price was reasonably equal. But I won't be going racing. So, a couple of HP can be overlooked if price or modification hassles was included in the final decision.

Thanks, Peter
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top