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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All,
I have a freshly built 1973 911 RS look track car and a restored 1970 911T that was featured in European Car magazine in the Sept 2000 issue. I am now looking for a little different "flavor" for my next car project. I am very intrigued by the late 60's - early 70's GTV's. The problem is I know next to nothing about the different models, different engine sizes, GTV vs. GTA vs. GT. Jr. etc.
Which are the most desireable models as far as collectability and performance? I plan to use the car as a slightly upgraded from stock DE and Time Trial car, not a balls out race car.

The info I can find on Alfas doesn't seem to be nearly as organized as the stuff that I can find on Porsche's, imagine that :D

The only thing I know about Alfas from this era is that they are apparently even more prone to rust than Porsche's are. What are some good websites or books that I can read to learn about these cars?

I have some basic questions if you guys don't mind:

What does a typical complete rebuild of the motor cost and how is the durability of the motors in general?

How much does a typical rebuild of the trans cost?

How is availability of parts and service in the Orange County/ LA area?

Are there any great body shops that repair rust CORRECTLY in this same area?

I do alot of the work on my 911's myself. They are easy to work on (except for the motors), incredibly durable and reliable when done right, but outrageously expensive for parts, machine work and labor.

Thanks, I look forward to learning and maybe eventually driving an Alfa one day soon.
 

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Which are the most desireable models as far as collectability and performance?

GTA's, A GTA is like a 911 RS lightweight.

Gt Jr.s are step nosed and most GT Veloce are smooth nose, with 4 front lights.

GTA's - 1300/1600 twinsparks - also weigh about 1600 pounds.
Gt Jr.s - 1300/1600
GTV's - 1750/2000

It's just like early 911's, everyone want's the 911s motor, well everyone either wants a 1600 twinspark (but that's very pricey), so most throw in 2 liters.

Alfa Parts- Parts are everywhere (a few)
http://www.international-auto.com/
http://www.arricambi.com
http://www.alfaparts.com

Engine rebuilds - Prices may vary

A built up street motor with labor, will run from 6k plus.
 

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Engine durability is great. Chain primary drive is very long lasting.

Book recommendation - How to Power tune Alfa Romeo Twin cam engines by Jim Kartalamakis (Speedpro series)

Transmissions will get noisy and lose syncros (particularly 2nd) but keep on going. My trans has 110,000 miles - noisy as heck but all the gears work and the shift is still fine.

Good luck in your hunt. Buy the best you can afford........
 

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If you want to minimize up front mistakes, I’d suggest going to a few AROSC TT events (the next one is at California Speedway on August 9 & 10), wandering the pits and talking with some of the Alfa entrants. This will give you a good idea of what’s going on with Alfas of the type in which you expressed interest. Also, by seeing what people are doing with their cars, and how they do it, you can be your own judge as to whether or not they represent a good source of information. Other good opportunities for face-to-face interactions with Alfa people would be any of the AROC http://www.aroc-usa.org/main.html chapter events in So. Cal. These would be AROSC http://www.arosc.org/ or AROCSD http://www.arocsd.org/ . Alfa people are generally very friendly and more than willing to provide opinions on what the “right” way to go would be.

As for the relative merits of Porsche vs. Alfa, I’ve had both, respect both and enjoyed both. If you look back to the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, they were very competitive with one another on the track. Alfa parts are not quite as easy to come by as Porsche parts but they are readily available once you learn the “supply system”. There are several very good service shops in So. Cal. that specialize in Alfas but not as many as there are Porsche shops. As for cost, after having played with both, I’d guess an Alfa costs about a half to a third what a Porsche costs to maintain. That assumes one is not playing with the ultra exotic cars because at that level, Alfas may cost as much, or even more, than Porsches.

Just to keep things calibrated however, keep in mind that I’ve been looking for a license plate surround for my GTV that says:

"My other car’s a Porsche,

but today I’m in a hurry"
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Bruce Colby said:
Just to keep things calibrated however, keep in mind that I’ve been looking for a license plate surround for my GTV that says:

"My other car’s a Porsche,

but today I’m in a hurry"
Bruce Colby
Director of Timing, AROSC
'65 Sprint GT
'69 1750 GTV
'69 1750 Spider
'71 Jr. Z


Bruce,
First of all, thank you for the info. I am sure it will be very helpful. That will be a funny license plate frame. I expected a GTV to not be quite as fast as my 1973 911 track car, but your quote made me wonder if maybe the Alfa's were faster than I expected. I wondered how the times for my car at Willow would compare to a GTV so I went to the AROSC website and got this.

WILLOW SPRINGS

A 100.48 SPERRY, MIKE GTV / /86

B 96.434 HENDERSON, ROBIN GTV 2/5/95

C 100.485 BROWN, ALEX GTV 11/14/99

D 100.67 BROWN, ALEX GTV 12/4/94

E 105.139 BROWN, ALEX GTV 2/9/92

F 108.628 AVAKIAN, SIMON BERLINA 12/4/94

M 91.618 SIMMONS, KIT M3 5/30/99

N 92.464 BLIZZARD, BOB MUSTANG 1/14/01

O 94.984 LADIN, JIM MUSTANG 1/14/01

P 96.933 DeARMAN, DARYL RX7 11/12/00

Q 102.926 CLEMENS, BRUCE" 912 1/14/01

MX 87.178 HAMILTON, STEVE T49 LOLA 2/1/98

MF 93.161 KUNZ, JOE 308 2/1/98

MM 84.827 CRESINTINI, DINO GTV SPEC 11/10/91

FA 104.347 TREJO, ARTHUR 308 GTS 2/5/95

Z 98.138 STOEHR, DIRK GTV/GT3 1/14/01


It looks like only the Lola and a GTV SPEC have got my car beat, but what the heck is a GTV Spec with Dino Cresintini driving it? Holy smoke that thing is fast!

It looks like my Porsche would be really fast at an Alfa Romeo event, BUT, I don't think that speed is everything. I think that the Alfa has a uniqueness and a mystery about them that Porsche does not have due to their popularity. Any other replies are greatly appreciated. I am reading everything I can find right now.

Thanks guys
 

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Discussion Starter #6
If the GTA is equivalent to the 911RS lightweight is it also priced similarly $120k-ish? If so, that is just a bit out of reach, I would say :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If the GTA is equivalent to the 911RS lightweight is it also priced similarly $120k-ish? If so, that is just a bit out of reach, I would say :eek:
 

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We see Dino fairly often but usually driving a 933TT. In January he set the AROSC track record at Willow at 1:29.128 with the 933TT. That was eclipsed at our following Willow outing by Jeff Borer in a R1T at 1:24.168. Yeah, those Porsches are really fast! Why not bring out your RS and get to know us. There are usually plenty of Porsches there.

As for the GTV Spec car, well that was before my time. However, you've got me curious. I'll try to find out and will post what I learn.

Now, just a quick bit on GTAs. GTA stands for Gran Turismo Allegerita or Grand Touring Lightweight. It was a GTV (V=Veloce) lightened up with aluminum panels in the roof, hood, decklid and door skins plus a few other things. It also had some modifications to the engine, the most famous of which was a twinspark head; to the suspension and so on, to improve performance. Originally, it came in 2 versions, Strada for street use and Corsa for the track, and had a 1600 cc engine. Later on a 1300 cc GTA Jr. was introduced. Both were very successful track cars but, as always, the competition got stiffer so Alfa had to try harder. They produced a 1750 version of the car (track only I think) with more motor, flared fenders for bigger tires, etc. This was followed by the GTAm that was a 2000 cc Trans Am car for the mid '60s. In any event, the price/value of a "GTA" depends on which model it is and what, if any, race history it might have. Exactly how much they cost is beyond me; they are all too expensive for my budget.

Oh, as is the case with RSs and RSRs, there are more GTA wanabes around than real GTAs. I don’t mean to say that there is anything wrong with the wanabes, they look great, they just don't have the same value as the real thing.
 

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Dino's GTV

Bruce,

That's the tube framed GTV that Dirk Stoehr now owns. It's now red, #69. It used to be green/white polka-dotted.

Dino bought a McLaren M8F (ex-Roger McCaig) Can-Am car. I want to see what THAT will do around Willow!
 

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"Which are the most desireable models as far as collectability and performance?"

"GTA's, A GTA is like a 911 RS lightweight. "

Nah! I'd take a Tipo 33, and if not that, a TZ2 would be a nice race car......:cool:
 

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GTAs are sweet little beasts. As far as their cost....I believe NWARC's Steve Shaffaer paid something like $30k for his if that gives you an idea. He tracked it down, and had it imported from, France.

Of course I'm sure prices vary depending on the car. His was in good shape and started up straight out of the shipping container.

Here it is at the annual Ferraris On 12th:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks again guys. I really appreciate the info.

Where do I look for rust? Do you guys fanatically have the rust cut out and new metal welded in, or do you just kind of live with it and not worry about it too much?

What kind of budget should I plan on? I see guys on here that have bought great looking cars for less than $4k. I will probably just try and buy a VERY nice restored and semi-prepped car. What do you think I should budget for price-wise assuming I get a desireable year and model but not one of the very rare models?
 

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Look for rust in the rocker panels and wheel wells. If it's a glued in windshield then look for it around the the windshield. Rust is the devil.

I would say plan on something between 6 - 8k for a decent Alfa. It could be more, it could be less but ya know...depends on the model etc.

I can say that you will fall in love with whatever one you get and once that happens, there is no turning back. It's a disease. Alfas are special...very very special cars. There is nothing like them on the road.

Once you've wound one out on a lonely country road you can never go back. I have had serious psychic moments with mine. They communicate with the driver so effectively it's beyond words. I cannot stand to drive anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
magista said:
I can say that you will fall in love with whatever one you get and once that happens, there is no turning back. It's a disease. Alfas are special...very very special cars. There is nothing like them on the road.

Once you've wound one out on a lonely country road you can never go back. I have had serious psychic moments with mine. They communicate with the driver so effectively it's beyond words. I cannot stand to drive anything else.
Have any of you guys driven both Alfas and early 1969- 1973 911's? The above quote is exactly what I would say about an early 911. My 1969 S weighs about 2100lbs from the factory and is 170 hp with almost no torque below 4800rpm with a 7200rpm redline. Once you hit 4800rpm though the motor just screams and pulls like a banshee up to redline. If you can keep the revs up in a 911S, it's almost like a religious experience. Independent suspension all around and a heavy tail end that can be made to come around perfectly in corners, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IT. The exhaust note on an MFI or a Weber carbbed early 911 is amazing.

Obviously 911s are special cars especially the early, raw, lightweight 69-73 models. The 1974 and newer 911's are a completely different animal. They are much heavier, more refined, less sporty, more torquey but less rev happy. Many 911 enthusiasts feel that Porsche stopped making 911's in 1973. How will the Alfa driving experience compare and contrast with the early 911? I like revvy little 4-cylinder motors and lightweight cars, but am a little concerned about the rear suspension set-up.

$6-8k for a decent Alfa? That is a great price! That will only buy you a 914 in Porsche land and I would much rather have an Alfa! I was planning on spending double that for a really nice example of an Alfa with NO RUST! Is this realistic?
 

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Driven Both....

I've driven both (on the track), and they are, ....well.......different. Both good! I recently drove Mike Getzhoff's '73 (stock) Carrera at Willow Springs, and it was great fun. It was very responsive, and it went right where I pointed it. I have raced dozens of different Alfas, and my race car is a '74 GTV. I love Alfas, but I do enjoy the power that a Porsche provides. Alfas are certainly more comfortable to drive at speed. I really don't think you can compare them that easily.

I have also raced a rather over-done rat-trap of a 930 with a huge turbo, which WAS a different animal.

Bruce Colby is right, you should come out to one of our events and see the different Alfas, and go for a few rides. Someone (maybe even me) might swap cars w/ you for a session. Where do you live?

Alfas, to me, are feminine while Porsches seem more masculine. At least as far as driving impression. Even the pedal-feel, power and driveability. There is a place for both, and both can be very fast, if well set-up.
 

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racea911

Worried about the rear? That's not something to worry about. After driving a GTV, you'll ask yourself "how the devil do they do that with a live rear axle?"


By the way, how much are you asking for this 911s? Does it have the orginal 2.7 motor???
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It is a 1969 911S (with matching number motor and trans) which came with a 2.0L with mechanical fuel injection. The car is stripped down to a shell and on a rolling dolly. It needs to be dipped or media blasted down to bare metal and have the rust repaired. The motor is completely rebuilt with 0 miles on it at a cost of $8800. The trans is completely rebuilt with 0 miles on it at a cost of $1200. I have many other parts that are restored and ready to go, this is just turning into way too big of a project for me. I have $18k into the car as it sits and I am getting offers right now in the $10k range which I will probably end up taking. The car needs another $15-20k put into it to have it restored to the level the 911S deserves to be restored to. When finished, the car will be worth a solid $30k. The next owner should probably end up being into the car for what it's worth, which is rare when you restore a car.
 

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Delicious!!! I will own a 911s one day. Your letting it go for a good price. "if" I had the money, I'd probably be all over it.

Was that motor rebuilt to stock specs? How many ponies does a stock 2liter S motor pump?

Me want, me want, me want!!!
 

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that is a good price for the 911. like sniady, i happen to love those cars. one day, i too will own one, just not now.

as well as the arosc event you should go to california speedway next weekend. there will be a 2.5 challenge race with lots of gtv's, hopefully a couple gta's, and two giulia sedans.

gta's have gone up in price lately. i remember a few years back picking race ready gta's for the low to mid $30K range. today, those prices will get you a good restoration project.

how much are you looking to spend? you can get a race ready gtv for half the price of a gta and if you drive it right, you WILL blow the doors of some gta's.
 
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