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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

Was getting ready to finally start putting my new engine together so started checking specs, only to find that top compression ring end clearance seemed .35 in bores n.1 and 3 and .50 in 2 and 4.

Got my engineer friend over who was trying to determine why a sud engine might wear like that. But then I got an idea. Swapping roubd the new rings ( I had put one in each bore rather than just use the same ring) we found that it seems to be the rings not the bores. In other words two of the rings give you an end clerance of abou .45 -5 in any cylinder. the other two give you .35 in any bore.:(

This is a bit weird is it not? They are Grant standard rings. I have not checked the second or oil rings yet but am worried that the rings are defective. .5 is only just within specs and anyway surely the new rings should be the same.

We measured the bores themselves and al are very slightly different but within tolerance. Any ideas or anyone else out there in rebuild land had this experience?

regards

paolo
 

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yeah that is rather strange, they should all be the same, maybe with slight variations. I always use Goetze rings, apparently they are the Sh*t and German of course. Perhaps phone your supplier and complain. Last thing you want after the time, effort and money to rebuild a motor is ring issues
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah I agree,

All that work, youd think the bl**dy rings would be the same. At least the heads came up brilliant.

Thanks I think I will get Goetze rings. I'd rather spend the extra than risk a problem. I will try and complain to my supplier but from experience he will simply tell me we dont know how to measure them properly.

Ah the pain.

regards

Paolo
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hello Enri,

Good question. I started a thread some time ago about oversize rings, because an alfa mechanic said you should get those not standard. He must have meant of course that you then grind them don a bit till they suit the bore. However others on the BB recommended against this as did my mechanic friend. All said use standard but check the gap.

I just rang my parts supplier who first told me it was the bores and that all rings are identical. Then when I explained that if it was the bores I would obviously get a diferrent end gap in each bore wigh each individual ring. Instead I get the same end gap with each ring in each bore, except two rings give you .35 and two nearly .5. He then told me the world is not exact and not to worry about it and that not every ring can be exactly the same:mad:

Not happy., but getting used to patronising parts places. The story keeps changing but the parts are never exchanged.

Paolo
 

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He then told me the world is not exact and not to worry about it and that not every ring can be exactly the same:mad:

Not happy., but getting used to patronising parts places. The story keeps changing but the parts are never exchanged.

Paolo
What a load of crap, items such as rings should be manufactured without the tolerances you have experienced.

Name and shame.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yes I agree, Crap indeed. it is very disappointing after years of being a customer.

It was Formula 1 at Liecchardt. It is one thing (and bad enough)to just suggest the customer has no idea what they are doing, but to change your tune and start talking about rings being like that is disgracefull. Its not the first time either. A\The Spares place in Adelaide quoted 150 for a set of Goetze rings. Might just have to get them I suppose.

I e-mailed Grant in the US with the problem yesterday. Lets see if they write back.

regards

Paolo
 

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Richard Jemison
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Ring gap issues

I have been buying all my rings through: http://www.hastingsinc.com/
I realize you guys are in Australia but it`s worth a look. Their engineers are happy to assist with ring design for each application. You can pic ring & product #s by boresize. But sizing rings to fit is the only way to go!
On a 2 liter bore size about .022 1st ring, .017 2nd ring. is tops for good sealing. :D
 

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Yeah, this is exactly what the Aussie Boxer
thread was started for, to name shoddy suppliers and parts, so we can all avoid those who deliver bad service and give our hard earned bucks to those who deliver the goods. Good luck Paolo, keep us posted with the German rings...........
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Just for those of you technically minded (I am not) here is the official Grant rings response. I shall have to show it to my engineer friend to get help in determining wether this falls within the "what a load of crap" category
or not. Personally I wish I could put some rings in the engine that did not have such a large discrepancy in their end gap clearance wether they are in an enlightened "free state" or not.

Regards

Paolo
:confused:
Dear Paolo:

 

You wrote

“I hope that you can help me. I am rebuilding an Alfa Romeo 33 1.5 twin carb engine with 84 mll pistons.

 

I have  kit with a set of standard Grant piston rings, however something seems strangs about the top compression rings.

 

Ring end gap tolerance according to the Workshop manual .s between .3 and .45. Roughly the same as the instruction paper in the packaging.

 

However not all 4 rings seem the same. We have checked by pushing each ring into the bore about 4-5 centimetres with a piston. At first it seemed that the bopres were more worn on the left hand bank of cylinders (it is a flat four).  bores 1 and 3 were .35  which is good and 2 and 4 were .50, not so good.

 

but when swapping the actual top end rings into different bores we discovered that wherever you put 2 of the rings the end gap is .50 or close to it and wherever you put the other two it is .35.

 

We have measured the bores and they are very similar and not  oval.

 

It seems to me that there is a difference in the actual rings size?

 

I don't want to use rings that are very marginal re the specs and anyway surelly  all four should be virtually identical?”

 

The specifications given are general specifications. Ring tolerances vary and can be found to be + or -. The SAE specification for a ring of that bore size is

.010” (.254 mm) to .020” (.508mm) so you are actually within specification. Our general rule is a little tighter, but you can see that there is a larger tolerance given by the SAE. Rings are not necessarily going to have the same gap when you look at them in a free state. Depending on how they are sized or what casting they come from may determine how the rings look. Of course they should have the correct dimensions when put into the bore. I hope this makes sense. If you have any questions or would like to discuss this further let me know. Thank you.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Craig Marder

Product Manager

Grant Piston Rings

Ph. (714) 996-0050

Fax (714) 524-6607

 
 

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I can see what the representative from Grants is saying and they have based their production on generic specs as recommended by the society of automotive engineers for that bore. they anticipate the rings being measured before installation (as you have done) and sized accordingly. Because they are to be sized at installation these rings have not been made to precisely the same size in the measurement that doesn`t matter as Grants see it as the installer does the sizing regarding ring gap. This is ok for most applications but if it puts the end gap outside what Alfa recommends -and I`ve always gone for the minimum end gap when rebuilding my engines-I would say that those rings are unsuitable for the purpose you`ve bought them for. If you made it clear what you were going to use them for when you purchased them I think you would have a good case for returning them and obtaining a refund. It would be wise to advise Grant Rings as well that their rings for that application are unsuitable as they are outside the manufacturers specifications.

Richard J
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Richard,

My supplier is not going to take them back. Suspect I have done my 150.00 bucks and will have to chalk it up to experience.

I will advise Grant and appreciate your comments. I want my new engine to have the minimum end gap when I re assemble too. I just hope the next set I buy dont have the same problem.

regards

paolo
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Craig,

Told Grant P/L what you thought of their last e-mail and here is there response. Thought you might be interested. "Bulletin Board gossip". They certainly don't like the potential power of the internet.

regards

paolo

Paolo:

I do not know who you purchased the rings from so I cannot comment. I am not
going to get involved in bulletin board chatter as it usually just causes
more and more gossip to be spread. I will just say we have always had a good
reputation for supplying quality piston rings at a competitive price. We
stand by the SAE specifications and I do not believe our rings are out of
specification.

I am sorry if we were not able to satisfy you, but maybe we can in the
future.

Sincerely,

Craig Marder
Product Manager
Grant Piston Rings
Ph (714) 996-0050
Fax (714) 524-6607
 

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Dear Paolo
After reading Craig's response to you, I am sad but not surprised. It really is typical of the way that small business in Australia operates. When companies like this go out of business and complain that no one in Australia supports them and buys locally, the answer is obvious. They just do not look after their customers. The simple truth is that; businesses run by people like Craig deserves not to be in business. I am reminded of when I was visiting my brother in Japan. He was rebuilding an RX7 while I was there. When his order of Apex seals arrived he found they were the wrong size. He made one phone call and within 2 hours the correct parts had arrived to his door by express courirer, accompanied by an elegant gift box of saki, delivered by a uniformed man wearing white gloves. Later we heard that the parts manager of the company was severely reprimanded and lost a weeks salary. Im not suggesting that this is necessarily a good thing either, but it just goes to show that we have a long way to go in Australia, when it comes to customer service. Surely Craig knows the basic rule that in business, bad news travels fast...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hello,

Yes it is sad but not surprising, and I am particularly annoyed at the "bulletin board chatter" part. In the time I have been on this BB I a have been very impressed by how knowledgeable people are on the technical specs of their ALFA's. And why wouldn't they be as they love their cars.

Neither Grant nor my supplier have made any effort to back up the product I bought and why would I use rings at best on very margin of what ALFA recommends (but really slighly over).when the engine I am replacing has as its major problem blowing smoke. Such is life.

And yes news travels fast.

regards

Paolo
 

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I feel sorry for you Paolo, this sort of thing has happened to me many a time. Service and customer care no longer exist in this country, which is sad. As long as you hand over the hard earned cash thats the end of the deal, especially noticable in the auto parts industry. There are so many shonky dealers out there and if they are selling parts that are not what you wanted they simply dont care. In my case it was a second hand parts dealer, I needed a new 1.7L crank so I approached a business that dealt with European makes ("ASV European car parts"). The told me they had a good one ready to be shipped, and then it was off to the machineshop to have it checked, only to get a call that it was a 1.5L crank from my machinist. All this after making it clear they are different cranks for 1.5 and 1.7L's. Well the hassle I went through to get a 1.7L crank from them was rediculous, from we cant help you and we wont return your money, 1.7L cranks are hard to find etc. I still wonder if they tried to sell me the 1.5L crank just in case I would not notice. After some heated discussions on the phone and several calls to them from my mechanic mate who can be rather firm to say the least as he is sick and tired of these dodgy people aswell, they finally co-operated and found me a 1.7L crank, some 6 weeks later!! And I could tell you many more stories aswell, from people selling parts that are for different models, to damaged and jerry fixed not to mention dangerous second hand parts, at out of this world prices and down right lying to you on the phone when you order it.
People that operate like this need to be stopped and perhaps this BB needs an area that highlights dodgy people, your Ring manufacturer at the top! Its just not good enough that they dont admit there is a fault. Perhaps a letter to the ACCC needs to be written, IMO they owe you your money back!

Best of luck with it all.

Josh.
 
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