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Push hard and live
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I've just had an odd exchange with Dougal Cawley at Longstone Tyre. I purchased a set of CN36 185/70-14s from Longstone for a 77 Spider I'm putting back into service. Enjoying the way they handled, I recommended them to a neighbor who has also reinvigorated a dormant Spider. My neighbor reported back that they were now available from Tire Rack. He noted that they include the following disclaimer.

"Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels, or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in High Performance Summer tires during cold weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Pirelli's warranty does not cover tires that develop compound cracking due to use in ambient temperatures below 45 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) because it occurs as a result of improper use or storage."


So, I researched the Longstone and Pirelli websites for such a warning, and could not find it. Then, I wrote to Dougal, who is a friendly and helpful participant within our BB, asking about this. We had a bit of back and forth, during which he said he corresponded with Pirelli. Some of his forwarded replies included:

Dougal,

there is no reason that our vintage tyres should be treated differently to any other summer tyre, either made by Pirelli or any other manufacturer.
Generally within the tyre industry there is an acknowledged temperature at which summer tyres start to become less efficient and winter or all season tyres are to be recommended to maintain the same driving style.
Clearly driving all year round on summer tyres is fine so long as you are aware you have less grip on snow & ice compared to a full winter tyre.


I could not obtain a clear confirmation that the warnings from Tire Rack are incorrect. Rather, Pirelli's position seems to be that "everyone knows", and "all tire manufacturer's are the same", etc. etc.

If the Tire Rack warning is technically correct, then I should probably not drive on CN36s on 99% of the days in northern Nevada. It is routinely at or below 40f in the evenings, so once my tires have been exposed to 20F, they may never be allowed the 24 hours at or above 40F

Meanwhile, if at or below 20F, Tire Rack tells us they should not be "flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels, or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle." In other words, if we anticipate the tires being exposed to 20F, or what we call "night time" in northern Nevada, we should jack up the car to remove any load from the tires.

I was unable to get Dougal, or his friend at Pirelli, to confirm or deny that the specs quoted by Tire Rack were accurate. All I got was more or less "everybody does it".

Just consider what "irreversible compound cracking" might lead to.
 

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My guess is that you read a bit of American market boilerplate comparable to the "for racing and off-road purposes only" disclaimers on performance parts. It's worth noting that the UK climate tends to make more cold weather demands on tiers than NV. Pirelli's non-response is more telling than Tire-Rack's disclaimer. I'd trust Dougal's opinion.
 

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Push hard and live
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Discussion Starter #3
Actually, I took Dougal’s comments to be more or less “don’t look behind the curtain. You’ll be fine”

My suspicion is that Tire Rack found their language in Pirelli’s wholesale distributor’s contract, and this being the US where a company’s lawyers get the last vote in public statements, we’re presented the hard truth. Note, they’re saying “no warranties for failures due to use or storage at low temps”. Companies rarely make up that kind of stuff.

It may be that the less litigious Europe just sort of figures you’ll do your own research and drive wisely.
 

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So, a Pirelli tire made with the best modern materials is unsafe when driven in 20 degree weather? I think our discussion, brief though it is, reveals a central different between progressive and a conservative.
 

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Push hard and live
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Discussion Starter #5
The only way this conversation would reveal who is a progressive or conservative is that it would be the conservative that leapt to the conclusion they could tell the difference from this conversation, facts and rationality being optional among the current breed. The conservative thinking I was raised with up in Nocona was heavily biased toward character and intelligence. Alas... no more.

To clarify....

I’m not stressed about this, other than a tiny bit at people who won’t give a straight answer to a simple question.

My question to Dougal (who is generally quite helpful) was “is this Pirelli’s official position?” I got neither a yes nor no.
 

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This type of language (the warnings about cracks occuring if flexed below freezing) started to appear on just a few "R-compound" DOT approved race tires about 10 years ago. Obviously it was in response to the fact that some of them had in fact cracked, and customers came looking for warranty coverage from the manufacturer.

It's only within the last few years that I've seen it extended to high performance summer street tires. My take on the situation is that either the construction or the compounds of these tires is becoming more specialized and the compounds are more like track tires of just a few years ago.

However, FWIW, I have driven a number of these types of tires (including the Pirelli P-Zero Corsa and P-Zero Trofeo R) at or below freezing on dry roads and not noticed any ill-effects, save for the fact that their traction is really terrible. Some tires are worse than others in low temperatures, but none have cracked or suffered any damage.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I’m not worried. This thread is just a musing.

I read that the CN36 was OE fit on the GTV6. Perhaps for only the ones shipped to CA?

Dougal has shared that the recent reintro of “vintage” tires includes some modern mods. Not quite clear what they are.

I’m not interested in driving any 115 on icy or snowy roads.
 

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The only way this conversation would reveal who is a progressive or conservative is that it would be the conservative that leapt to the conclusion they could tell the difference from this conversation, facts and rationality being optional among the current breed.
Irony, Don. Liberals and progressives tend to see skulduggery in discrete corporate machinations that are shielded from the public while conservatives tend to see skulduggery in posterior covering boilerplate which reflects government marketplace intervention rather than practical reality. Ya' pays yer' money and ya' takes yer' choice . . . ☺
 

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They are just summer tires that not recommend to use in temperatures below 5C.
Till the last few years all season tires did not exist in Europe. They had summer (compound work till +5C) and two kinds of winter tires, for soft EU winter (compound works till -25C I think) and Scandinavian winter (below -25C)
Companies in Europe do not put winter compound in summer tyre to get all season tyre as Americans do

Sent from my Z957 using Tapatalk
 

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My guess for what it’s worth; the statement is nonsens. Otherwise it most definitely not be a tyre that may be sold in Europe without any warning and meet legal requirements (which it does in Holland and it’s not like we have no safety rules, on the contrary). Like you state, this would mean you would need to jack up the car every time the temperature dips slightly, I do not believe Pirelli would ever produce a road tire like that (track biased or not).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
180OUT

I've found more rational ways to understand the Conservative/Progressive/Liberal/Libertarian natures. It's not through assumptions about the symptoms of their behaviors, but rather the things that actually cause them to self-identify in one or the other group. I recommend...

"The Righteous Mind", by Dr. Jonathan Haidt.

As a slight diversion, it seems meaningful that, according to you, Liberals distrust the private skullduggery among Conservatives. Yet, we are living in an era of neo-Conservatives, in which lying is an acknowledged method of persuading the voters. Presumably the voters less inclined or able to recognize when they're being lied to. In the 80's a couple of well-admired Conservatives stated, on TV, that the Democrats were now the party of "facts", and the Republicans were the party of "beliefs", and that the latter would bury the former. This has largely proved to be an accurate assessment, as increasingly the Conservatives are finding they can coalesce a strong base if they simply tell them, via lies and spin (a form of lying), how their worst fears are real and only the stalwart Conservative Strong Men will save them.

I was raised when "Truth, justice, and the American Way" was something we were proud of. And watched on Saturday morning.

And, I belong to neither party, preferring to plan my future around dancing the tango with young, under-dressed ladies in foreign countries less likely to be attacked by the many enemies our "evil empire" has created in the last few decades.

Life's rule #1. Don't stand in the middle of the bullseye.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
My guess for what it’s worth; the statement is nonsens. Otherwise it most definitely not be a tyre that may be sold in Europe without any warning and meet legal requirements (which it does in Holland and it’s not like we have no safety rules, on the contrary). Like you state, this would mean you would need to jack up the car every time the temperature dips slightly, I do not believe Pirelli would ever produce a road tire like that (track biased or not).
I agree with your reasoning, except for one point.

Dougal cut-and-pasted the replies from his "friend at Pirelli". None of the replies said "this is not true", providing only encouragement to continue driving the tires based upon the assertion that all tire manufacturers more or less were the same in this regard.

I was not aware Europe hadn't been offering all-season tires until recently. Interesting.

Anyway, if the temperature risks described by Tire Rack are incorrect for Pirelli, certainly it would have been in their best interest to flat out correct the record to Dougal's inquiry. If the temp limits do represent an official warranty limitation, then BY LAW in the US, they must be not only stated, they must be provided to a customer upon request.

So - apart from humorous digressions into American Politics, this post is just simply to point out the vagueness from Pirellli, and by extension, Longstone Tyre.

Note that I'm not demanding that they state these tires are a good choice to drive in the winter. I just want to know WILL DAMAGE BE DONE TO THEM IF I DRIVE OR STORE THEM IN COLD WEATHER?
 

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I’m guessing in the event these tires showed premature cracking, which in all likelihood won’t happen, they have a reference to say, “we told you so”, warranty denied.
 

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There's two issues here with summer tires that I think are being conflated:

1) They lose a lot of grip at or below freezing as they don't have the compounds added to keep them flexible at low temperatures. Gotta take it easy on them until they warm up from driving as traction can be poor (and if it's really cold out they may not ever fully warm up.) Definitely shouldn't use 'em in snow as they don't have the tread pattern for that.

2) At or below 20F they get can hard enough that they can actually crack if you drive on them. This can cause irreversible damage to the rubber. If you do a search you can find a lot of info and photos about this: some Corvettes had a lot of issues recently. The risk of this varies from tire to tire, and appears to be more common in the UHP stuff. No idea how badly the CN36 is affected.

Storage apparently isn't an issue for (2), just driving on them.
 

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But Mad North-Northwest
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Here's a photo from the Corvette service bulletin which states to avoid 20F or lower. Again, these are Michelin and Pirelli UHP summer tires, I do not know if the rubber compound in the CN36 will behave similarly.

1610065
 

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Discussion Starter #18
No, just one issue.

Does Pirelli have a warranty limitation and/or use limitation that is not being communicated to buyers of the CN36?

Our warranty laws over here are very strict. Failure by the manufacturer can lead to triple damages.

One of the strict requirements is that all warranty terms MUST be clearly stated, and made EASILY available to the customers. I have found no such statement on either the Longstone or Pirelli websites, nor was I given one with the tires, nor was one provided when I recently inquired with Longstone, who contacted Pirelli.

Thus, either no such warranty limitation exists, or it is a hidden or unpublished limitation (which is prohibited).

Thus, if my tires crack or fail from driving in the cold, I’m covered.

Crashing from driving fast in the snow would just mean I was stupid. Or a Republican, but I repeat myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Actually, he is nice. Plus, a fellow Texan.
 
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