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Discussion Starter #1
I've been searching for first-hand directions and photos for the input shaft roller bearing swapover. I found some threads which _used_ to have pics, but no direct pics or concise directions. This afternoon we disconnected the engine for my son's '93L with a prospective trashed input ball bearing.

I'll b swapping out t-belt while the engine is out, along with right front motor mount, re-torqueing heads, and replacing reaction rod and shifter bushings. Probably I'll replace the infamous fuel line splices on the firewall and do the cam and aux. shaft seals at the same time, as well as put in a rebuilt starter (yes, done by a local auto electrical shop on the starter which came out of another son's wrecked S).

I couldn't see doing all of the disassembly required for this job without ending up with a lot of preventive maintenance getting done. The car has about 150K miles and had a non-Alfa clutch job done about 40k ago by the P.O. The clutch is _very_ stiff, and had been since purchase in Jan 2004. I'll be doing a clutch kit job on it, Ricambi Originale kit with Valeo disc for the clutch pressure plate. I hope the clutch will be lighter and more available for the wife to use as needed. The car is a very nice graphite gray metallic color, respray of original done by the P.O., and still looks very nice.

Please forward or post those pics and directions, folks. I'll be looking forward to them. I'm planning to play hookey tomorrow and get this transaction transacted. Maybe get the bearing replacement done and get the engine/transm. back into the car and hooked up for running. It really doesn't take that many hours to do this the third or fourth time in 6 months....

MIchael
 

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I would like to know about this too. I can probably see it in my near future. Also, about the starter, Michael, have you found that the rebuilt ones are quieter? Every 164 I've driven, it makes that moan for about a second after the key springs back when you just start it, except my mom's 164L which sounds just like a normal car...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sean,

I've never noticed the moan you mention. Maybe I've not had a car that makes it, or maybe I've just never been clued in.

Michael
 

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The cadisc (original manual) is the instructions I followed to take mine apart. I found it to be a little vague at times. It is a fiddly chore to do but can be done at home. My repair involved fixing a stick in gear tranny which turned out to be a missing tiny safety pawl in 2/3 shift rod but the pics I have may be of some use to you. My input bearing was the overload one and in good shape so I didn't need to replace it. The hardest part is R&R of the 5th gear (the 3 little rollers pop out when you remove the plate in the center of the gear) and reinstalling the middle case, to get the main shift rod into it's proper place, but the good news is, you can test the tranny's operation before reinstalling. I suggest tearing it down in a clean place where you will not lose the 3 rollers when they go flying (I tore mine down on the kitchen floor ;) and I'm glad I did). Just start following the cardisc instructions to tear it down and come back here with questions. ;)
Charles
 

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Picture support starts in section 13 under bench disassembly about page 13-11 in January 1990 edition. Really manual is pretty good but as you do step 11 of removing 5th gear hub and sleeve asembly you must cover 5th gear assembly with a towel as you lift it off main shaft to trap 3 syncro rollers and 3 springs so they don't take off across the garage to never be seen again.

The project can be daunting the first couple times you attempt to dismantle tranny to do bearing change and pretty hard to retell the story. I haven't done one in a couple years but have two to do if I ever get the time.

You need more hookey than one day for your first go at it. If hookey day is Sunday we might be able to give you some advise first hand at my Strathmoor House as my son and I work on his Maserati and 91L side by side in garage. You can bring precleaned tranny over and maybe I can help you.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Steve,

I'll see how far I get in a day. Probably you're right, but I really didn't want to end up with the S tranny in the L and wishing it wasn't there after a bit. Stock has its attractions.

Charles,

I notice that your front case (bell housing?) has the roller bearing apparently free of the input shaft. Isn't that an interference fit? Or at least a bake bearing and freeze shaft assembly? You said yours was OK, but the bearing isn't captured on the shaft?

Someone on the board here had mentioned drifting his old bearing race off the input shaft, and I'd really like to know how this was done. My Dad used to grind a groove in any bearing race he wanted to remove, and then smack the living daylights out of it with a cold chisel. He wrapped it heavily in shop rags so any chips of the (very hard) bearing material wouldn't end up in an eyeball somewhere. Others use a cutting torch to remove reluctant bearing races. If the fit isn't really a strong interference one, then I might be able to persuade the race to just jump off. I hope.

And those are beautiful pictures, Charles. Thanks for posting them. I'll try to snap some good pics during my endeavour.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #7
What's this about removing the "caulking" around the "main and transmission shaft ring nuts?" Do I need to replace said caulking? With what? Should I be using blue loc-tite there? Is it a sealing issue or a locking in place issue? Certainly one would not want the nuts coming loose.

Looks like I may be using some plastic sheeting, old towels, and wooden lawn edging to hold the tranny off (and keep seepage off) the kitchen floor.

Any issues about replacing synchronizers while in there? Unless it takes me until next weekend, I won't have time to acquire any, but I thought I'd ask.

Looks like I only have to disassemble to p. 13-14, step 25. Is any more required? (apart from R&R the bearing)

On p. 13-18 (main shaft disassembly) they call out removing the rear bearing and the 3/4/5 gears, THEN swap the shaft around and remove the front bearing (which is the item of interest here, I believe). Is this necessary, or can I go directly to the front bearing if I can fixture it? Nothing special appears in the reassembly to reference certain surfaces against others. I'd think that if I use thermal means to gain clearance, then I can reinstall the front bearing without any problems and with out having to dismount the rear bearing/gears.

That's about all I have from reading the manual. Thanks for all input, folks. It makes such efforts as this much lighter work.

Michael
 

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Nuts on ends of drive and driven shafts are torqued pretty tight and have thin edges crimped (staked) into "key way" on ends of shafts. It is helpful to unstake them with a small bladed chisel, sturdy awl or the like to bend that stake out of notch. Then you have to lock tranny in two gears at once as manual states so you can loosen nuts. Have to do it to torque back later on, too.

Once you get to the point where you can remove both shafts and gear sets from front case you will see that front input shaft ball bearing is attached to shaft and will have to be pulled off as an assembly if it has not failed and outer casing fallen free of ball bearings ( if that has happened the probably will have bad gear teeth so may be terminal). Roller bearing as shown in Chazzy's pixs is designed to come apart so much easier to remove and reinstall gear set (not so with ball bearing). TAKE A BIT MORE TO GET BALL BEARING SET UP OUT OF CASE. So you end up having to lift both gear sets at same time if bearing is not broken.
 

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Many little things to watch out for such as size of larger spring position removed in step 16 is for 5th and reverse rod (see step 14 way over page 13-27 for that tidbit). There are 3 small ball bearings under those springs and a small thin pencil magnet helps to slip in holes to retrieve them.

Oh yes, back to removing left axle shaft it is held in with a snap ring on splined shaft so need a slid hammer or a smartly applied rap with a hammer and heavy rod on flange where CV joint bolts to remove it as outer case will not clear it. page 13-11 step 3.

You will need Loctite 518 sealant to reseal tranny cases.

Step 23 page 13-14 talks about those safety pawls in shift rods that Chazzy's tranny was missing don't loose them and notice which size goes where. I was thinking there were 3 of them again different sizes but pictures only show two. Chazzy do you remember how many?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, folks, here we are playing hookey. There is a development that I'm not sure I want to admit here, but it would be a nice one in some respects. I pulled the engine early this a.m. with #1/#3 sons before sending them off, and when I drained the tranny (no, I didn't do this before pulling the enginek) I found about 2 cups of gear oil to come out. Not ATF, not 2 liters, but about 2 cups (~0.5 liter for those who use decimal instead of binary based units).

Two possibilities present themselves immediately, in no particular order:

maybe the tranny is OK, and the sound I heard was just running dry. This happened to me on my Volvo 1800S, and things settled down again when I topped off the transmission.

or maybe the lack of oil, or its being gear oil instead of ATF, caused a bearing failure. There was also no flywheel cover, so road crud was being thrown in some unknown amount into the clutch area. Sad not to have noticed for 3.5 yrs (but it may also have escaped the notice of some more skilled than I). So. I will pull the tranny and inspect the bearing.

I noticed that the reaction rod and shifter bushings appeared fairly new and not chewed up. This means to me that the extreme looseness of the shifter is _NOT_ the reaction rod bushing, and may be something inside the gearshift console. I'll be looking there, too. All comments and experience from others welcome here.

I'll probably install the rebuilt starter instead of using the old one. The RF motor mount is already replaced (a piece of cake with the engine out, ya know), and I'm trying to talk myself into actually R&Ring the fuel hose splices at the firewall. They were a pain on my wife's S, but they'd be more of a pain with the engine in.

And I'll replace the t-belt and retorque the heads while the engine is out. Not that I'd recommend anyone pulling an engine just for that, but it's more pleasant to do if your engine is hanging on the hoist or on a table (or both).

Michael -- head scratching time never ends, eh?
 

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The bearing race containing the rollers in the bellhousing should come right out without any trouble if I remember right it is hardly even a press fit, the race on the main shaft is the one that is pressed on and may take a puller or a chisel method to remove or alternatively take it to a tranny shop to remove and replace with the new one. The "caulking" Alfa refers to is really "staking" if you ask me. Those nuts are of a hardened steel and it takes some effort to bend the staking back. Be careful because metal shavings result when you loosen them. There are 3 safety lockout pawls. 2 large "vitamin shaped" and one small pin that fits into the 2/3 shift rod that allows one pawl to push the other when you shift, say the 1/2 shift rod, the small pin will push on the other large pawl between the 3/4 and 5/REV rod to lock them out. Hard to expain but don't lose the small pin and get another one if missing, it will not shift right without it and will eventually cause the whole thing to lockup without it. There is a little hole drilled through the 3/4 rod at the knotches and that it where it lives. The manual is not very clear on that. Also, the stub axle is much easier to remove with an axle slide hammer that any other technique I have tried. It will be a good time to get the axle flange seals and the large O rings (used a little of the Loctite on the axle flanges as well) to stop the leaks. This will be time consuming. I think I tore mine apart one day and boxed and bagged things up, waited for parts and cleaned up the mating surfaces over time and put things back together maybe a week later before I forgot how it all went back together. ;) But, it has been shifting and running beautifully so well worth the effort. I also resealed the diff cover while I had it out but you must be very careful reseating the axle races so they are square with the dif, bad things will happen if they are not put back nice and square. You will se what I mean when you tackle this as well. I also had to open the dif up because I had dropped the plastic speedo gear down in there or maybe I would have left it alone. Which reminds me that ordering a new o ring for the speedo drive will be a good idea, I didn't have one . :rolleyes: Sounds like you will want to inspect everything if it has been run low on fluid.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Update(s)

P.O. had indeed used Alfa/Fiat/Valeo clutch components. However, missing flywheel cover allowed much crud to build up in clutch area, making front surface of friction disc wear out prematurely (see pic). The second pic is of the flywheel. Apparently the P.O. didn't change out the clutch and let it slip for a while. I'm speculating that the resultant surface heating caused fatigue fractures all over the flywheel surface. This crack is only one example.

I think that I need to swap in the flywheel from the '92S (this is a '93L). Any worries but for bolt pattern? Prospects for success?

I found a ball bearing (tiny little guy, ~5 mm dia) when cleaning out the bell housing. I suspect there will be at least one missing from ball bearing when I pull input shaft sleeve. I also found that the ThrowOut bearing was binding terribly on the input shaft sleeve. This could have been the principal cause of the very hard actuating clutch. As I have not only a new bearing but a new sleeve, plus new clutch pressure plate, disc, and T/O bearing, I think this will a smooth operating system after it's done.

Thanks for all the input. I'm eager for more. Well, it's off to peel things off the tranny and maybe strip the flywheel from the '91S parts engine.

Michael
 

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I think whichever flywheel you use, you will need to have it machined to prevent judder problems. The cracks will likely be removed with a standard resurface on your L flywheel. Also, a small extending mechanics magnet is good for R&R of the safety pawls as well, BTW.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
we can't get the outer housing off without the main gear selector lever snagging one of the three control forks and engaging a gear. Then that fork won't let go of the selector and we can't get the housing off more than about an inch. We've carefully followed the manual and start in neutral. Help, please.

We've been at this for hours and the gear selector keeps snagging something on the way out. We have tried pushing it in and pulling it out but then instead of the 3/4 gears engaging, it's one of the 1/2 or 5/R. This is really frustrating. It looked like it might actually go OK for a while until this snag showed up. The slide hammer worked great to pull the left side axle stub.

The bearing is (in this '93L) a ball bearing with disintegrating race. There are 8 balls in the bearing (just now) and probably that's as many as started there, they're just not in the same places. So it was good that I didn't just say, "Put some tranny fluid in it and drive it a while.

But I'm really not happy about the housing not coming off. There is a cryptic message (in translation) on p. 13-13 at step
18, "Remove gearbox casing backing speed control shaft." This almost says, "remove {something} shaft," but probably says, "remove {} casing {which houses the shaft}."


Michael and the crew
 

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Well when your balls as in bearings all line up on one side you know you are in trouble. Cage what cage where did it go? Now you know why bean counters instead of engineers should never build ALFA ROMEOS. A Lira saved is a dissatisfied 164 owner later on.

Michael I have been here done that threw away the greasy tee shirt. Told you it wasn't a one day hookey job.

Pardon me but I am celebrating after a 7-day wrench turning binge on David's 1991 Verde 164L RESCUE project with a happy hour. We worked a solid 8 hours on our hookey day and we actually started it and drove it around the block after it has set idle for over 3 years. It is so nice to be able to move another 164 under it's own power in the driveweay.

I will help you on tranny project as I told you in earlier post but not today I am over 164 maintenance for this week.
 

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I assume you have removed the 2 bolts holding the vertical shift rod and have tried wiggling it around a bit and up and down. I had a hard time removing the center casing because it was hanging up badly at the 2 main shafts end bearings. I could only lift the center case about 1/2" before it would hang. It is a close tolerance fit at those bearings where the 2 large circle clips retain the large end bearings at the end of the center case. The circle clips had rubbed enough to produce a slight lip or burr edge, if you know what I mean, which held up the whole center case from lifting straight off. It may be what is holding up your center housing as well. It took me a while to figure out that that was the hangup. :( You will get it eventually, the vertical shift rod should not be causing too much trouble as it is not too hard to get it right when you go to put it back together, though it is still one of the fiddly things upon reassembly.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The two rear bearings are clear of the housing and dangling in space. The 3/4 shift fork is the hangup. If I push the shifter in to the 1/2 area (still not engaged in any gear) then one of those two gears gets engaged as the housing moves up and then the 1/2 fork is the hangup. Similarly for the 5/R fork if I pull the shifter rod out (up in the car's normal frame of reference). In that last case, it is the 5/R fork which hangs up on the shifter rod, while both 1/2 and 3/4 rods go free. Frustrating. I don't know whether simply to push on and see what gives or not. I don't like to do things that way.

Oh, I have to go back to square 1 to change from hung on the 3/4 to hung on the another rod. And then I have to fiddle with the R control rod to get the shifter back to where it will select any of the usual gears. At least I can get the tranny back to starting configuration each time. But it's a bit fussy sometimes.

The manual makes it explicit to leave the shifter rod in neutral. But I'can't get it to stay that way.

Michael
 

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Fun isn't it? ;) I don't know what to tell you but go by the manual and keep fiddling. ;) It is a fancy German engineered puzzle and test of will and your mechanical aptitude. ;) You'll get it, that shift rod moves quite a bit if you remove the two bolts at the top flange although the large spring makes it even more fun to deal with. A lot of trial and error will be in order throughout the whole process. When you go to put the shift forks back in, they have to go back in a certain order which you will have to figure out because I forget. ;) O' don't be too afraid of this thing, I don't think you could hurt it too much at this point, it is the reassembly that will have to be done just right, which I think is actually easier than the disassembly since you will understand it well by then.
Charles
 

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I'm trying to understand your dilemma further. Try putting some ATF on the shift rods to allow them to slide more easily through the case without getting hungup? Maybe a second set of hands to hold the shift rods in place as you lift the center case? The detent balls and springs are removed right?
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Mission accomplished (part 1a)

Here's the scoop, not included in the manual. The fork control tabs are all in a row. If you get one of them and pull the housing off, then guess what -- you're in gear. And you just about can't do anything else with the shift rod. However, if you pull the shift rod full out (up in the car frame, as installed) then you can pull the shift rod control tooth (singular) out of the slot formed by the three control rod tabs and you can pull the housing off the base. Simple, no? Not without instructions, it isn't. So, problem solved. It was truly a hangup of the control rod on the fork control tabs, not the rod on the housing..

In case you haven't read between the lines yet, I have done the deed. Naturally, given my level of frustration, I took no other pics than the ones I already have posted. R&Ring the control forks was no great problem. There are three (3) pawls in the setup, one each larger diameter one in the gallery connecting the 1/2 and 3/4 fork counterbores, and in the gallery connecting the 3/4 and 5/R counterbores. There is a skinnier one which dwells in a hole drilled through the base of the 3/4 fork. It's not clear to me exactly how the setup works, but it seems to do so. Oh. Kick me. The center pawl allows the state fo the 5/R fork to be communicated to the 1/2 fork, and vice versa. Clever. It is a pass-through and the protruding pin immobilizes the 3/4 shaft at the same time.

DO NOT SUCCUMB TO TEMPTATION! It is tempting to grab the fork shafts with vise grips to move them and see how things work. Do not do this. Bad Idea. The shafts are _not_ hardened and you will make burrs on the shafts which will interfere with holes in the aluminum housing when you put it back together. This will result in interference and will make one of the gears engage as you reassemble, which will result in your _not_ being able to put things together. Maybe it is possible to disassemble/reassemble the thing in R or 5, but why try? Oh, maybe because it was 3 which was engaging on putting the housing on, and if 5/R had been engaged, nothing else could have done so. But I don't _know_ that the control shaft tooth could go there with R engaged.

When I removed the main/transmission shafts, the 8-ball bearing lost its balls. The outer race fell out, but the inner race was pressed onto the shaft. Fortunately, with no further disasembly of other things, I was able to drive the race off. Gentle taps on alternating sides (taking a risk of damaging the shaft, I suspect, but maybe its' OK. The roller bearing comes apart with the outer race and the rollers and cage as one piece, and the inner race as another. I drove the inner race onto the shaft using some fixtures I has available, and all seems to be OK now.

I didn't put the bolts back in the housing, nor did I reassemble the outer bearing retaining rings and stuff under the small outer housing. That will be tomorrow. I'll drop the flywheel by a shop for their opinion and possible resurfacing. The wear on the old friction disc was on the pressure plate side, not the flywheel side, and I believe it was due to abrasive dust/oil making a nice grinding paste. The pressure plate is shiny. It will be replaced, along with the input shaft sleeve and throwout baering. The car should be a pleasure to drive once it's reassembled. That will be paced by the flywheel work, I suspect.

Michael
 
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