[Lokki]

Can anyone help with some pictures and tips about mounting a Facet Silver Top electric fuel pump in my 71 Spider (converted to Webers)?

My Spider has been bogging at about 5500 rpm on steady acceleration. I have fresh filters, a coated tank, a Malpassi Filter King adjusted to 3 PSI, fresh points, and fresh plugs. Webers were tuned a few months ago by a pro but the bogging remains.

I also have a small squarish electric pump that I suspect is probably 15 or more years old... probably part of the PO-purchased Weber conversion kit. Having ticked off the other possibilities above, I suspect this small pump runs out of steam (OK fuel pressure) under the load of acceleration. Besides my mistress demanded something for Christmas , so I purchased her the pump along with a mounting kit and the 90 degree fuel line hookups. Haven't bought anything for the wife yet though

The instructions which come with the new pump 'recommend' mounting it vertically with the input from the tank at the bottom and the output at the top. I'd planned to mount it horizontally, in the right rear of the car where the current pump resides, with the fuel input closest to the tank. It had never occurred to me to consider mounting the pump vertically (which I suspect would be a small PITA) until I looked at the instructions. I'd prefer to mount it horizontally of course .

Additionally, I haven't pulled the old pump yet (it's 35 degrees today!) and so I don't know how the bracket on the Silver Top lines up with any brackets or mounting points on the car. I'd appreciate any advice and experiences you guys could give.

Finally, I bought the Silver Top as it was recommended here as the best low pressure pump for Weber Converted cars. I've read that the fuel pressure is 2 - 5 psi. Is this adjustable? If so, how? Do I even need to worry about that since I have the Malpassi pressure regulator?

Thanks!

Lokki

 

[Lokki]

Thanks Paul....

... I would say there is something wrong with the set up. If it was working with your old system, then it is most certainly something with the new carb setup.

Paul - thanks for you help. The carb set up isn't new per se - as I noted it was put on the car by the PO (I'm guessing) more than 15 years ago. It's had a variation of this problem since I started restoring the car two years ago. It's running better and better as I work on the car - she started on the first crank this morning at 39 degrees. She pulls cleanly and strongly except for the stumble and bog I mentioned above

What would you say "something wrong with the set up" means? Could you pin that down a little more perhaps?

You can see the list of things I've chased so far.

In any case I have the pump and it shouldn't hurt anything to put it so, so my original questions remain.

 

[Lokki]

Thanks Gubi - that's helpful. I'll take pics as I go.... the weather is supposed to warm up a little next week... sooo

 

[Lokki]

Here are some pics that hopefully will be of use to someone approaching the same project.

First a picture of the old and new pumps. The old pump (foreground) is also a Facet - a POSI-FLOW EFP-3 which as best I can determine has has 1.5 to 4.0 PSI with a max flow rate of 23 GPH. The new pump is the Facet Silver Top with 2.0 to 5.0 PSI with a max flow of 36 GPH at 2.0 PSI and an average flow of 23 GPH. (Note these figures vary depending on the web site).

Next some pictures of the mount from a couple of angles. I believe that this mount is the original mount for the SPICA pump.... The D*mn PO had mounted the EFP-3 to it by drilling a hole for a single bolt. However, it had never come loose, so good enough was good enough I guess.

The mount which is itself mounted to the chassis behind the right rear wheel is actually a double-layered piece. The bottom layer is held to the chassis by three bolts: two horizontal to the ground with the bolt heads facing the rear of the tire, and the third mounted vertically; bolt head towards the ground.

The second layer is isolated from the bottom layer by three rubber mounts. Each rubber mount is a 'doughnut' which has a steel sleeve in the center with a bolt running through it. These bolts hold the two layers together.

The pump itself is mounted to the second, isolated layer by two bolts. Unlike Gubi's car, the bracket welded to the pump did not match up with anything on the original mount. I had to drill two holes in the second-layer piece and buy a couple very short bolts (to clear the lower layer of the mount) and a pair of nylock nuts.

Note that you have to ground the pump body to the car chassis -you can't ground the pump to any part of the pump mount because both layers are isolated from the chassis by rubber mounts or grommets. So, you'll need a long ground wire. In the picture above I've taken some heat-shrink tubing I had and run the ground (yellow head) side-by-side with the black-wired positive lead, just for neatness.

As a final note - the official Facet Mounting kit (about $10) is an unnecessary (and in fact useless) purchase for this application. It consists of two rubber isolators (the Alfa mount already has three) and a grounding wire that is too short to use in this application.

I'll be mounting and testing the pump next; I'll report back as to whether or not it resolves the stumble @ 5300 -5500 on hard acceleration. Hope so!

 

[Lokki]

Reviving an old thread to give a conclusion that changing out the pump -did not- resolve the stumble. Nothing fixed it, including putting in a new 123 Distributor, until I went to a full Euro manifold system, replacing the SPICA manifold to Weber conversion set-up. My theory is that the rubber seals between the carbs and the SPICA manifold were old and started leaking air, changing the mixture, when the engine was at the 5300 -5500 rpm range.

Anyhow, conversion to the proper Alfa Weber set-up fixed the problem.

 

[Lokki]

MNVXer, yes, that mount is pretty big, but it's the existing original from the factory. Except for drilling a couple holes to actually mount the pump (since the original holes didn't quite line up), nothing was changed. I may have a picture of it in its final installation location somewhere in my files; if I come across it , I will post it here.

Jay - you're correct that I mounted the pump horizontally....that was the best way to mount it using the existing pump mount, giving the cleanest look and most safe and solid mount point.

I went with the horizontal mount after reading the info on the pump -
(Gold Flo | Motor Components, LLC | Facet Purolator)

It says that mounting the pump vertically isn't mandatory in every case.

" For best results, mount the pump close to the fuel tank and below the fuel level. The pump is self-priming to 24 inches vertical fuel lift. Vertical mounting is preferred to assure maintenance of rated pressures."

With my old-style gas tank which has the fuel line outlet at the bottom of the tank priming the pump is not an issue. It is pretty much a level shot from the tank outlet to pump input. No worries about 'vertical lift' for priming. Frankly, I would think that even using a later style tank which pulls out the top of the tank should be OK as the drop from top of the tank to pump intake would (eyeballing things) be less than the 24 inch max self-prime height.

As for loss of pressure from horizontal mounting,since the min rated pumping pressure is actually close to the max pressure I need (2.5 lbs) and I have to run a pressure regulator anyhow, any potential loss of pump pressure from mounting horizontally is irrelevant.

So far, the internal filter on the pump hasn't shown any hints of clogging, but then my tank had just recently been flushed and coated before the pump was installed. I've had it close to a year now and, so far, so good.

 

[Lokki]

Gkmyer - I don’t visit the BB very often these days but happened to do so today and saw your post on this old thread. Reading back through my old post, I see that I -speculated- that the facet pump might be able to pull fuel from the fuel tank without the need for an in-tank pump. However, I never personally tested that theory.

My car is a 1971 - in 1971 the fuel tank has its outlet to the fuel pump on the bottom side of the tank, close to the exhaust pipe. This means that gravity feeds fuel over to the electric pump which is located on the right side of the car, just in front of the right rear wheel.