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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Group 2 Motorsports and GiroDisc have some VERY exciting news to share with the Giulia community! We are ready to install the first G2 / GiroDisc performance brake setup on a new Giulia road or street-track car!

First, some history for context...

As many here on the forum are aware, Group 2 Motorsports and GiroDisc co-developed some amazing performance brake solutions for various Alfa Romeo models over the years. Product offerings include well-engineered, true bolt-on, tested, high performance front and rear caliper, pad and floating hat rotor solutions for Spider, GTV and other 105 / 115 models, continuing on through complete front and rear caliper, pad and floating hat solutions for 116 Alfetta / GTV6 and Milano / 75 models - and most recently - floating hat, rotor and pad solutions to raise the bar on the 4C model's stopping power as well.

GiroDisc is a first-rate brake design, engineering, manufacturing and distribution company with a-LOT of brake development experience - backed up by decades of racing data feedback from a dedicated community utilizing their products. The quality, performance and cost value of our GiroDisc solutions are well-documented within the Porsche, Ferrari, Nissan GTR, Mitsubishi Evo, Corvette, Lotus and other performance vehicle communities as well. The giant full race AP / GiroDisc floating hat / rotor solution that I run on my own 3.7 litre 24v Milano race car, as well as the lightweight Wilwood / GiroDisc street-track setups running on dozens and dozens of Milanos and GTV6s out there, is first-rate and well-known!

All caliper brackets and floating hats are hard-anodized CNC pieces with branded "AR" part numbers. Floating hardware and fasteners have above industry-standard tensile ratings. Rotors are of a high-quality iron and the final product is zinc-dipped which maintains a nice, rust-free finished rotor edge. Pad selections draw from readily-available performance ranges and OEM part numbers such as Ferrodo, Pagid, Wilwood, Hawk, Brembo, Akebono, as well as GiroDisc's own Magic Pad product offerings.

These brake solutions are designed to reduce un-sprung weight (but also to reduce overall weight), to improve ventilation and cooling capacity, to reduce the potential for fade under performance driving conditions and to decrease stopping distances - all while retaining original dimensions and integrating seamlessly with the vehicle's OEM system! In many cases, solutions require fitment under small OEM wheel sizes for originality or to meet racing regulations and this is accomplished successfully on many models such as the older Alfas where a larger rotor and even a 4-piston pot caliper all still fit under a 15" wheel!

On newer models, the modern wheels are huge anyway and it doesn't matter as much. For vehicles with larger wheels, the performance and cost advantages can increase exponentially.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
One of the greatest advantages to GiroDisc performance brake solutions - especially for performance models equipped with carbon-ceramic brake options - is cold / street performance and cost. Carbon-ceramic brakes are NOT known for their cold street performance (or for their low cost.) :| We hear it frequently - the high cost of replacement and the accelerated wear of carbon-ceramic equipped models is staggering!

On the Giulia Quadrifoglios which are tracked, we also see very uneven "tapered" wear patterns to the pads - eroding their safe and serviceable lifespan very quickly! In the Porsche community for example, for years, Group 2 Motorsports has helped owners of PCCB (Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake) optioned cars such as 996 Turbos for example, by removing the PCCBs, the owners placing them into storage and driving the duration of their ownership on the GiroDisc package. At the end of their ownership, the carbon-ceramic brakes are reinstalled and the vehicle is sold with the OEM brake setup installed - or at least - included with the sale of the vehicle.

During ownership (and while operating on the GiroDisc solution), owners of these models report better cold / street performance, equal or better track performance (especially during early cold laps), lower replacement / operating costs, lower wheel dust levels, noise reduction and other benefits. Most significant perhaps is an increase in cold / street performance and cost! When the floating rotor discs wear out, we simply replace them with new rings and floating hardware at a fraction of the cost and the customer is good to go!

Group 2 Motorsports has made a significant investment in GiroDisc inventory and because they are located here in Washington State as well, most items are available same or next day for local installation and same-day for out-of-state shipping!

Feel free to contact us via the shop line at 206.378.0900
By email via [email protected]
You may also follow us on Instagram here - https://www.instagram.com/group2motorsports/
Or on Facebook here - https://www.facebook.com/group2motorsports/
 

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Why do you that Giulia brakes are not good? Is you replacement brakes better than Brembo? If they are better how can you prove it? Can you for instance post the measurements of 100-0 braking distance 10 times in a row of your brakes and stock brakes? What is the stopping distance from 200 or 250 km/h 10 times in a row?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Why do you that Giulia brakes are not good? Is you replacement brakes better than Brembo? If they are better how can you prove it? Can you for instance post the measurements of 100-0 braking distance 10 times in a row of your brakes and stock brakes? What is the stopping distance from 200 or 250 km/h 10 times in a row?
Hi Max, what I typed is still there for you to re-to read, rather than just scan over.

I never said that the "Giulia brakes are not good" - I simply pointed out the excessive leading-edge wear that we are seeing in pads from carbon-ceramic equipped models which are being tracked. I also discussed the known, lower cold / street performance of carbon-ceramic brakes versus well-engineered iron rotors and appropriately-selected pads. My post(s) also discuss the significant cost advantages of replacing the GiroDisc rings as they wear - and storing the carbon brakes until the vehicle is sold.

Unless cost is not a factor for you - in which case you are in a very rare 1% category of Alfa owners.

Am I getting sucked into the classic "Alfa engineers know best" argument, or am I simply bumping up against another "Brembo is the best in the world" perception here...? Besides, we are not replacing the Brembo calipers - only the hats, rotors, pads and floating hardware.

Anyway, based on our past experience with GiroDisc products on many other cars these past 15+ years, it will be easy to improve on the brakes in the base 4-cylinder Giulias. The co-cast "base" rotors on the Q-models are quite amazing though and the cost is significantly lower than the top of the line CCM brakes on the Q models, so we have focused our efforts on a replacement option for the top-top CCM-optioned cars as a first release.
 

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I'd be curious John what the weight savings are per complete rotor, hats, pads and floating hardware for 2.0L models.

Front:
Brake rotor on 280Hp model weights in at 20.65lbs
Brake rotors- 5.56lbs
Brake clips- 0.19lbs
adapter bracket-1.39lbs

27.79 Lbs total from info I have gathered. Is there a significant drop in this? If so it would be a very nice upgrade for sure since stock wheels are fairly heavy.

Thx John
 

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No info on weight savings. Girodisc does not email back. Oh well.
 

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There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.

Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!

That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
 

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There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.

Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!

That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
Makes no sense to me both performance-wise and cost-wise. I have seen a few Q owners drop the CC brakes for standard steel brakes. If I were to upgrade my Giulia ti brakes, they would have to be significantly lighter, not drilled, slotted or dimpled. Just a solid face rotor. The drilled look great but do not perform as well. Same with slotted. I am not one to go along with the slots refreshing the pads, more like shaving them down faster than you need. Pads would have to be a good compromise between cold bite to hot and fluid, a high quality fluid with a high temp boil point. I do plan to track it at some point for fun but for daily driving to spirited, stock is fantastic. Next pads are going to be the Tarox Strada unless something else comes out by the time I need them.
 

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There's not really convincing evidence that carbon ceramic brakes work well for road cars, even when tracked. If you are also using street tires your tires will give up long before your iron brakes, assuming you fit appropriately harder pads when you are on track.



Evo magazine did an interesting back to back test of otherwise identical supercharged Jaguar F Types fitted respectively with Jaguars standard iron brakes and optional carbon ceramics. The iron brakes stopped better for the first 4-5 stops and then more or less matched the carbon ceramics up to 12 consecutive stops. From 100 mph!!!



That was with street pads on the iron brakes. Admittedly the street pads "caught fire" but they stopped the car anyway.
There is a simple explanation. They did not follow the heating procedure. You can open the last page of the EU Giulia QV owners manual and read how to heat carbon ceramic brakes.
Basically after 12 stops ceramic brakes only reached the correct temperature :)

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Makes no sense to me both performance-wise and cost-wise. I have seen a few Q owners drop the CC brakes for standard steel brakes. If I were to upgrade my Giulia ti brakes, they would have to be significantly lighter, not drilled, slotted or dimpled. Just a solid face rotor. The drilled look great but do not perform as well. Same with slotted. I am not one to go along with the slots refreshing the pads, more like shaving them down faster than you need. Pads would have to be a good compromise between cold bite to hot and fluid, a high quality fluid with a high temp boil point. I do plan to track it at some point for fun but for daily driving to spirited, stock is fantastic. Next pads are going to be the Tarox Strada unless something else comes out by the time I need them.
well there are good and crappy drilled, slotted, vented or carbon disc oem and aftermarket brakes calipers and systems. one have to be weary of grand statements.

i had a pair of 930 cars brakes with drilled holes and they are fine because the holes are casted in before chauffeuring compared to the aftermarket stuff that are just drilled. for two decades the air cooled RS 4pots type 911/930 calipers with drilled rotors are amoungst the finest oem factory brakes to appear on a production car bar none imo

one can not evaluate the merits of brakes strictly on braking distance. thermo loading and wear are determine through long term testing. a key aspect in braking performance is the feel and modulation at the threshold. This is often subjective and important since in trail braking your car is not on a straight axis like you are performing brake test so you have to rely on feedback. straight line braking test doesn't tell you that.

ive driven on carbon brakes, great stuff since they save a lot of weight but i didnt own the car and if i did i can see why to replace them with conventional steel/iron disc due to the enormous cost

i personally have not driven giro equipped car that i can remember but i went to university for a post-baccalaureate degree specifically on vehicle research with the two founding members. one of the engineers who i personally know worked for Brembo before setting up giro. the company is the real deal being heavily involved GT racing firmaments on modern ferraris, porsches, lambos etc.. for awhile now. im actually surprised they are doing stuff for 90hp alfa 105s :)

tarox is wonderful little know company as well. they supplied the michelotto who builds semi-factory GR 5 and endurance racers for Ferrari's since the early 80's. we had a tarox caliper and disc set up custom built for a bespoke application. great stuff , reasonably price with a long history in competition.

my 2cents
 

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This is the procedure. Evo magazine, after Harry Metcalfe left it, drop to a garbage level.

Preheating the carbon ceramic material brake discs
The brake discs must be warmed up to make them fully efficient. You are advised to perform the following procedure: brake nine times from 80 mph (130 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 0.7g (the longitudinal acceleration value is shown on the instrument panel display by setting RACE mode and selecting the “Performance” page) with 20 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 240 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down; then brake three times from 120 mph (200 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 1.1g (ABS operation) with 30 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 300 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down.

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harry metcalfe, you mean that prehistoric fella that does youtubes vids now? just kidding i luv that guy.

dont buy a jag... lol i used to work there in Coventry. the procedure you mention is not too different from what i do when i swap out street pads for track pads on iron disc. am i the only one here that does this these days to bed in pads properly?

some of these disc and caliper packages housed in these supercar large wheels are ginormous. at over 16inch or more, the disc themselves have become bigger in diameter than a 105 wheel and more than twice as heavy if they were conventional cast iron. the weight savings and inertia reduction are substantial. not so much on a pokerchip size 105 disc.
 

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Considering that most people use their Giulia as an everyday car, with occasional track days at most, I think this confirms that the CC brakes are a useless upgrade for 99.99% of owners out there.

I do not know of anywhere outside a race track where I could brake nine times from 80 to 18 without causing an accident and break multiple laws. So, on the street, the CC brakes will nearly always be sub-optimal.


This is the procedure. Evo magazine, after Harry Metcalfe left it, drop to a garbage level.

Preheating the carbon ceramic material brake discs
The brake discs must be warmed up to make them fully efficient. You are advised to perform the following procedure: brake nine times from 80 mph (130 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 0.7g (the longitudinal acceleration value is shown on the instrument panel display by setting RACE mode and selecting the “Performance” page) with 20 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 240 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down; then brake three times from 120 mph (200 km/h) to 18 mph (30 km/h) with deceleration equal to 1.1g (ABS operation) with 30 second intervals between brake applications; keep the car at a speed comprised between 36 mph (60 km/h) and 60 mph (100 km/h) and do not brake for 300 seconds to allow the brakes to cool down.

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Brakes are heat generators, that's all they do. Kinetic energy is converted to heat.

Drilling brakes (or casting them with holes) reduces the capability of the disc to absorb heat, so they get hotter, faster.

Hotter brakes are more efficient at dissipating heat. That's not always a good thing. For road driving it's a very bad thing.

The issue is with achieving the optimal operating range for the pad material.

Pick your pads to match your driving requirement. Your discs don't matter very much. What matters is using pads that will brake effectively over the temperature range you expect the car to experience. Same for tires.

Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires.
 

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well there are good and crappy drilled, slotted, vented or carbon disc oem and aftermarket brakes calipers and systems. one have to be weary of grand statements.

i had a pair of 930 cars brakes with drilled holes and they are fine because the holes are casted in before chauffeuring compared to the aftermarket stuff that are just drilled. for two decades the air cooled RS 4pots type 911/930 calipers with drilled rotors are amoungst the finest oem factory brakes to appear on a production car bar none imo

one can not evaluate the merits of brakes strictly on braking distance. thermo loading and wear are determine through long term testing. a key aspect in braking performance is the feel and modulation at the threshold. This is often subjective and important since in trail braking your car is not on a straight axis like you are performing brake test so you have to rely on feedback. straight line braking test doesn't tell you that.

ive driven on carbon brakes, great stuff since they save a lot of weight but i didnt own the car and if i did i can see why to replace them with conventional steel/iron disc due to the enormous cost

i personally have not driven giro equipped car that i can remember but i went to university for a post-baccalaureate degree specifically on vehicle research with the two founding members. one of the engineers who i personally know worked for Brembo before setting up giro. the company is the real deal being heavily involved GT racing firmaments on modern ferraris, porsches, lambos etc.. for awhile now. im actually surprised they are doing stuff for 90hp alfa 105s :)

tarox is wonderful little know company as well. they supplied the michelotto who builds semi-factory GR 5 and endurance racers for Ferrari's since the early 80's. we had a tarox caliper and disc set up custom built for a bespoke application. great stuff , reasonably price with a long history in competition.

my 2cents
Thanks for the input. I'd be interested in Giro but neither the company themselves nor G2 respond to emails about the product. I guess they don't really care much to sell them. I have sent 3 emails each. I give up.
 

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jason

i dont blame you... though some of these guys are small operations without a dedicated person to answer emails and are perhaps busy. im going through that right now waiting for my suspension pieces and steering rack to be shipped back to me after 7 months from Ca and AZ

best of luck!
 

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Brakes are heat generators, that's all they do. Kinetic energy is converted to heat.

Drilling brakes (or casting them with holes) reduces the capability of the disc to absorb heat, so they get hotter, faster.

Hotter brakes are more efficient at dissipating heat. That's not always a good thing. For road driving it's a very bad thing.

The issue is with achieving the optimal operating range for the pad material.

Pick your pads to match your driving requirement. Your discs don't matter very much. What matters is using pads that will brake effectively over the temperature range you expect the car to experience. Same for tires.

Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires.
So the Alfa is nearly all fashion! Typical Italians! Must have been designed by Dolce and Gabbana or Versace.

I beg to differ on the rear spoilers on the giulia and tires comment. Wheels comment, depends on what you are doing really. 19" is slightly excessive but not overly. Adds a lot more weight. 18" is a better setup. If I can ever find a good looking 18" wheel for this car, I'd move to those. These 19" are heavy. 18" is the norm in DTM these days. in 1993, the 155 V6Ti DTM car used both 19 and 18" wheels. I know this is not a daily driver but it gives some idea that 19" wheels are not necessarily USELESS or Fashion statements especially with proper sized tires. I dumped the 225 tires that wrapped the wheels from the factory and went with a larger tire, larger sidewalls. I prefer this over the stretched tire.

Spoilers...

"The vast majority of spoilers out there don't do anything – you don't get any bang for your money," says Dr. Martin Agelin-Chaab, assistant professor in automotive engineering at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology (UOIT) in Oshawa, Ont. "They only work if they're properly installed, and even then, they only work at speeds of at least 100 km/h or more."

Spoilers are supposed to spoil aerodynamic lift: the force that wants to pull your car off the ground. They're supposed to push your car onto the road.

"Usually, spoilers are intended to increase downforce – they deflect air upward, which creates a downward force on the car," says Dr. Ron Miller, an engineering professor at Carleton University who has worked on race-car design. "This helps stick the tires to the road to give the car better grip and therefore better handling in cornering."

Spoilers can also reduce drag, Agelin-Chaab says. And the less air resistance your car has, the less gas you'll have to burn. But you probably won't notice the difference driving the kids to soccer, unless you're taking the highway.

"At 120 km/h or more, 50 per cent of fuel goes to combat drag," he says. "So, at high speeds, reducing the drag even slightly can have a huge impact on fuel economy."

But a spoiler only works if it's cutting through the air at the correct angle, Agelin-Chaab adds.

"Factory-installed spoilers on higher-end sports cars are very effective. Many others out there probably aren't so effective – and some car manufacturers even say their spoilers are for looks only." I'd argue these are higher end vehicles especially the Q and the design of the rear deck spoiler

Properly installing a spoiler requires at least three hours in a wind tunnel (UOIT's costs $700 an hour), Agelin-Chaab says. If you're installing one yourself, you can measure the drag on your vehicle doing a coastdown test.


While a spoiler might not help your car's handling or fuel economy, it can't hurt, right? Sorry to be a spoilsport, but a badly installed spoiler could mess with the airflow around your car. "Since it was not part of the aerodynamic design of the car, a spoiler may or may not interact correctly with the flow around the vehicle to improve things," Miller says. "It can even make things worse."

A badly installed spoiler can give the rear wheels too much grip, causing understeer.

"It can make the car more reluctant to turn as the straight rear wheels tend to overrule the turned, less gripping, front ones," he says.
 

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jason

i dont blame you... though some of these guys are small operations without a dedicated person to answer emails and are perhaps busy. im going through that right now waiting for my suspension pieces and steering rack to be shipped back to me after 7 months from Ca and AZ

best of luck!
Thanks Dave. If I can help, let me know? Good luck as well. I don't mind not spending the money. ;)
 

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Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient.

Otherwise, upgrading of brakes is an exercise in heat management.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia/bd69395a-b65c-481d-93f7-b26b1bd0638d/Centric_and_APC_Technical_Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf


Road car spoilers are largely decorative primarily because effective speeds for downforce generation are very high indeed. Two important functions for road car spoilers: front chin spoilers reduce front end lift at high speeds, 160 km/hr plus as long as the ride height is not too high so the air gap under the spoiler is only a few inches, and rear lip spoilers reduce drag by quite a bit improving fuel economy through the Kamm effect.
 

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Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient.

Otherwise, upgrading of brakes is an exercise in heat management.

Road car spoilers are largely decorative primarily because effective speeds for downforce generation are very high indeed. Two important functions for road car spoilers: front chin spoilers reduce front end lift at high speeds, 160 km/hr plus as long as the ride height is not too high so the air gap under the spoiler is only a few inches, and rear lip spoilers reduce drag by quite a bit improving fuel economy through the Kamm effect.
What do you think of the rear diffuser on the Q? Decorative as well?

Those fins help take advantage of Bernoullis principle and draw the car towards the ground. It shortens the space available for the air to pass through thus accelerating the airflow reducing pressure, resulting in downforce gains.

Also I am referring to the OEM carbon fiber Quad re-spoiler, not anything else and you are referring to "road" spoilers. I suppose this is similar to Toyota building the 4runner for off-roading when most don't off-road. But for the TRD engineers, they build the car for the 10% who do. If you don't, it's just another SUV.

I was on the fence with the rear spoiler as I preferred the built in spoiler off the trunk lid. It is a nice built in one. From what I know and from what I have read this OEM spoiler.aerodynamics, this one is fairly functional both in the aspect of spoiling the air/creating downforce as well as reducing drag.

I opted for the carbon fiber version seen below. I felt the front aerodynamics were as good as they get for a street vehicle.

Of course I realize the spoiler is for looks as well but this one serves a function. With the way this car can get up to high speeds (and for the most part even at 50mph the spoiler functions) it can help with stability at higher.

"Just a reminder that stopping distances are determined by the tires, not the brakes. As long as the brakes can lock all of the wheels, or activate the ABS fully on all four wheels, then they are sufficient. "

No reminder needed. I feel this is a contradiction in what you have posted prior. Stating high performance tires are a waste of money. "Carbon ceramics brakes on any road car are just a fashion statement. Like very large wheels, almost all spoilers and often those very expensive tires."

So if stopping distances are determined by tires but expensive tires are a fashion statement why do those fashion statements always typically stop better? I am running those expensive fashionable dolce & gabbana tires.

"The MICHELIN Pilot Sport 4 S takes only 33.66m to brake from 100 km / h to a complete stop. Even the best of its direct competitors takes nearly a meter more (+0,83m). On a wet track, 27.73 m is all the distance needed for the Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S to brake from 80 km / h to 0. This shows it once again as the best at almost 2.5m (+2,41m) shorter than the worst performer.

Wear tests conducted by the Dekra Test Center demonstrated that the new Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S has the best longevity in its class. It is also one of the first tires in its category to get an A rating on the European labelling scale (19 inch tire) in braking distance on wet surfaces. This label is meant to inform customers of the performance of the tires and also gives them information on the energy efficiency of the tire and its road noise level. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4 S also set a new milestone when it comes to the rolling resistance as two-thirds of the range are graded C.
 

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