Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 43 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi everybody,

I have in project the complete restoration of a 1972 Montréal.

Does any one can describe my the original painting configuration ?
==> Are the following zones the same color than the external car ? :
  • the underside of the car
  • the inside trunk
  • the engine compartment
  • the wheel arches
Regards,
Serge.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
Underside is generally black undercoating.
Engine compartment appears to be largely satin black
Not sure of trunk, but Alfas are often body color back there, then covered with mats or carpets. Some, such as my 102, were painted black.
Wheel arches painted body color, but covered with black undercoating.
Lower body panels (long pieces below the doors) are a very dark gray.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
One more detail if you don't mind :
Is the inside part of the engine hood satin black also ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
And I'll add to Serge's questions. On the panel underneath the doors that should be painted a very dark gray, is this smooth or textured? Gloss or satin? With my car, it's a textured surface that is black satin in color (though it's not undercoating). I suspect that the color/texture is not original since my car doesn't wear its original paint (originally orange, repainted ~25-30 yrs ago to rosso). Thanks all.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
I believe the lower panels should be gloss. I have seen the textured black, but it looks out of period and character to me.

I'm not certain if the underhood should be satin (which is glossier than flat black) or full gloss. I suspect satin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,938 Posts
Hi Serge,
Congratulations on getting your Montreal fully restored! I read in Bruce Taylor's "Montreal the Essential Companion" (a must have!
M-tEC)" I believe, that the bodies were originally galvanized in some areas and then the entire shell was dipped in a new electrophoretic coating for corrosion protection, then they were painted by hand (with a spray gun). I just repainted underneath my hood and used a semi-flat black spray paint by Krylon (auto parts store) and it turned out very well. I added a few areas to your list

:
  • the underside of the car- Black (flat or semi flat if you don't undercoating)
  • the inside trunk- Body color (under carpet)
  • the engine compartment- Semi-flat black
  • underhood- Semi-flat black, however the 'hood skin' that wraps under
    the hood (~10mm) is usually masked and left body color under the hood
  • the wheel arches- Semi-flat black, inside the engine compartment
  • Lower body panels (long pieces below the doors) are satin black on my car
  • Front air dam- gloss or semi gloss black bare fiberglass on my car
  • Window frames on doors Semi-flat black inside and on top
  • Inside headlight binacle, and back of 'eye lids' Semi-flat black
  • Inside front grill mesh Semi-gloss black
  • Inside of rear bumper under license holder Semi-gloss black
  • Vents behind door openings Semi-gloss black
  • NACA duct on hood- gloss black
  • Windshield wiper blade holders and arms- stainless steel unpolished
Hannelore has nice reproduction decals for the engine compartment and Giorgio has many rare and hard to find Montreal parts. If you would like, send me a PM with your email address and I will send you their color e-brochures (it makes Hannelore :clap:)

Mark
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
Mark, et al...

I am under the impression than none of the exterior panels were originally painted black. This seems to be a common choice when repainting the car, but the "lava gray" seemed to be the original color for the lower panels, area inside the rear bumper, and spoiler.

I've never seen the inside of the headlight louvers painted anything other than body color, but black seems to make sense to better hide them when folded down. Hmmm.

Window frams semi-flat black? Haven't seen that before, but then I've seen only a handful of Montreals at this point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,608 Posts
I am under the impression than none of the exterior panels were originally painted black. This seems to be a common choice when repainting the car, but the "lava gray" seemed to be the original color for the lower panels, area inside the rear bumper, and spoiler.
The front spoiler, the rocker panels and the rear panel with the "Alfa Romeo" script is black in the old press photos. I.e., charcoal grey/lava grey.

I'm not sure about the bonnet, but my unpainted bonnet was matt black on the inside.

Here's Bjørnar's Montreal restored by ex-Bertone Classic employee Massimo Chiara. He claims the colour scheme is correct all around. The dark areas appear satin without any texture to me.
 

Attachments

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
There is a definite difference between lava gray and black, although photos don't do a good job of showing it. I've seen several Montreals painted black along the rockers and rear panel, but believe this to be an incorrect interpretation of photographs. I had several comments at the recent Concorso from supposed Montreal "experts" (this means they know more than I claim to know) that the very dark gray is correct, and much more complimentary than black to the colors for the rest of the body.

The silver one sold for 99k at Bonhams this year was painted midnight black in these areas, with texturing of sorts along the lower side. Yuck. Perhaps this was a good way to hide problems in those panels?

The underhood paint I've seen has always been a satin black down in the engine bay, but a somewhat shinier black on the underside of the hood. Won't claim this is original either way.

The air cleaner, headlight shutter vacuum reservoir, and a few others should be gloss black, not the wrinkled black that they are occasional redone in. The wrinkle looks good, but isn't OE.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Hi everybody,

And many thanks for all these detailed answers.
Unfortunately, my english level is too poor and I have some difficulties to understand you sometimes :
What is the difference between semi gloss, satin and semi flat ?
What are the following parts :
  • Front air dam
  • Inside headlight binnacle
  • Inside front grill mesh
  • Vents behind door openings
Meanwhile, this is what I understand, please don't hesitate to correct me :

Underside : Satin Black
Trunk : Body Color
Engine compartment : Satin Black
Under hood : Satin Black
Wheel arches : Satin Black
Lower body panels : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
Front air dam : Satin Black
Window frames : Satin Black
Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
Eye lids : Satin Black
Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
NACA duct : Gloss black
Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
Front spoiler : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
The air cleaner : Gloss black
Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black

Serge
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,938 Posts
Hi Serge,
Your English is much better than my French, especially if spelling counts!
What is the difference between semi gloss, satin and semi flat ?

Here is a general description of paint shine levels from Dull to shiny:
flat, matte, eggshell, satin, silk, semi-gloss and high gloss or more specifically:
Flat (1–9% gloss)
Low Sheen or Semi Flat (10–25% gloss)
Eggshell (26–40% gloss)
Semi Gloss (41–69% gloss)
Gloss (70–89% gloss)
I used to manage a paint testing lab and we had equipment (Hunter Gloss Meters to measure gloss or color; you will find similar descriptions on paint cans in French.

What are the following parts :
  • Front air dam, spoiler-fiberglass piece added under front bumpers
  • Inside headlight binnacle- area surrounding the headlights
  • Inside front grill mesh- expanded steel net like material
  • Vents behind door openings- also expanded steel net like material inside the 6 slots on each side of the car to the rear of the door openings
Meanwhile, this is what I understand, please don't hesitate to correct me :
Underside : Satin Black
Trunk : Body Color
Engine compartment : Satin Black
Under hood : Satin Black
Wheel arches : Satin Black
Lower body panels : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey (I have never seen others in gray & thought that was Don's preference for his car; I like it with the orange!)
Front air dam/front spoiler : Satin Black or possibly gray
Window frames : Satin Black
Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
InsideEye lids : Satin Black (the exterior of 'eyelids' top of headlight covers match body paint work.
Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey (When my rear bumper was removed (probably for the first time), I found battleship grey paint under it, that had been painted over in black on the part that is normally exposed on this 347 Medio Blu car.)
Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
NACA duct : Gloss black
Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
The air cleaner : Gloss black
Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black

Serge
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thank you Mark for your answer.

Few things are still a little bit confusing for me: It'll be easier when I will have the car in front of me.

This discussion regarding color configuration is very important for me because I really want to realize a high quality restoration with this amazing car.

The car is running and is in a very good condition but first step will be to dismount it completely to be sure to realize a perfect painting including all these details.

Thanks again
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
The long panels along the bottom on each side should be gloss lava-gray, not satin. The lava gray is very, very dark gray, but I believe black is incorrect on this.

The same color is on the body just ahead of the rear bumpers. It is the part of the body that the rear license plate attaches to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
On the picture of "TorW", it looks like lava gray but satin not gloss. Could you confirm ? I still consider it is gloss like the lower body panels.

I take the assumption of all the aesthetic parts are painted the same - ie : Lower body panel, front spoiler, inside of rear bumper under license holder.
What about Naca duct : It should be se same no ?

I take also the assumption that most of "invisible" parts are the same color too. What about Interior (floor, ceiling, ...) ?

So, update according last remarks and assumptions:
  • Trunk : Body Color
  • Underside : Satin Black
  • Engine compartment : Satin Black
  • Under hood : Satin Black
  • Wheel arches : Satin Black
  • Window frames : Satin Black
  • Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
  • Inside eye lids : Satin Black
  • Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
  • Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
  • Interior (floor, ceiling, ...): Satin Black
  • Lower body panels : Gloss (satin ???) charcoal gray/lava gray
  • Front spoiler : Gloss (satin ???) charcoal gray/lava gray
  • Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Gloss (satin ???) charcoal gray/lava gray
  • NACA duct : Gloss black
  • The air cleaner : Gloss black
  • Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black
  • Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
If I can, I would like to put this configuration of colors on 3D drawing of the car. Does anyone have some drawings ? The only one I found is this one :

Vue éclatée générale.jpg

Nice day to everybody (here in Aix en Provence / France, the weather is very nice : The 1750 "Duetto" will have fun :thumbup1:).

Serge
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
9,620 Posts
While the TorW picture is attractive to my eyes, I am not so certain it is "factory correct"

My general view of Alfas is that the low production cars were intended as individual statements, and so it is fine if an owner wishes to use them as their own palette. Whether something was "original" seems less important than whether it is tasteful and works.

On this level, Tor's color succeeds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Personally I would prefer gloss for visible parts. It seams to me more compliant with the time being tastes.
So here is my "personal" update :

  • Trunk : Body Color
  • Underside : Satin Black
  • Engine compartment : Satin Black
  • Under hood : Satin Black
  • Wheel arches : Satin Black
  • Window frames : Satin Black
  • Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
  • Inside eye lids : Satin Black
  • Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
  • Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
  • Interior (floor, ceiling, ...): Satin Black
  • Lower body panels : Gloss charcoal gray/lava gray
  • Front spoiler : Gloss charcoal gray/lava gray
  • Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Gloss charcoal gray/lava gray
  • NACA duct : Gloss black ???
  • The air cleaner : Gloss black
  • Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black
  • Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
I still have a doubt regarding the Naca duct. black or gray ?
And what about interior (floor, ceiling, ...) : Satin black or body color ?

(Reading other posts on Alfa BB regarding Montréal, I have ordered the book the essential companion. The book will come from Australia)

Rgds
Serge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,608 Posts
While the TorW picture is attractive to my eyes, I am not so certain it is "factory correct"
Let me put it this way then: the area has the colour and the texture Bertone originally gave it.

I agree with you on what works in practice and that you can get away with a lot of personalization, but PS70 came here to find clues about how the Montreals looked after rolling out of the Grugliasco plant. I say we help him as much as we can :)
 
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
Top