Alfa Romeo Forums banner
1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Have you heard of the wonderful one-hoss-shay,
That was built in such a logical way?
It ran a hundred years to a day,
And then, of a sudden, it—ah, but stay,
I'll tell you what happened without delay.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, "The Deacon's Masterpiece"

I don't remember when I first became interested in Alfa Romeo cars, but by the time I started paying attention in high school there were still plenty of them driving around. One day in 1998 I was browsing Car Talk surveys and saw a rambling comment ("I left home at 16 and never returned...") that never got around to discussing the car. So I wrote to ask for details, and was soon urged to get one of my own.

10/20/1998
You DO NOT NEED a bottomless checkbook. (Otherwise I wouldn't have had three in a row....) But, you do need someone you trust, that's always true, though - right? Get a used red Spider for a second car. You won't be sorry. You deserve it. Buy in the winter, when its cheaper, and get it ready for that first sunny day next year! I have driven mine topless (so to speak...) in the snow and it was lots of fun. I was in the Yosemite Valley - right in the center - on a weekend day when it was abandoned. There is NOTHING like the towering mountains (skyscrapers and bridge supports are cool too) above you, the fresh air, good music (you have to spend a little more thought on a convertible's music system - so the speakers can defeat the lowered top in the back without blasting you when its up, and so it doesn't look tempting to steal. I've NEVER lost one) True story - as I was driving like this, with a light snow coming down - I saw a car in the distance coming up the other lane toward me - then we passed - it was a Jag XKE with his top down, too! Very cool.

get one NOW!
I asked about the other cars. (Privacy note: I wrote again in 2011 but delivery failed so I couldn't get permission to share these messages... I trust that quoting private correspondence from a previous century is covered by a statute of limitations.)

10/21/1998
first one was that year's special color (I think they had one each year) - chocolate brown with a very nice oatmeal rag top - beige with flecks woven in. i bought it off the show room, flush with my new salary (which I hadn't earned yet, of course....)

true story: since i put myself through college, i took the bus everywhere and my evil boyfriend (an MG driver) never let me drive - so I bought the alfa without a drivers license. I had taken some drivers ed when I was 15 or so, but now i was 20 and boy did it take a long time to go about 1/2 mile home - since I insisted on doing so myself, but had driven a stick shift like maybe twice in the previous 20 years. I learned pretty quick, though, although sometimes from the wrong people....

Anyway, those were my bad, wild days and i ran the car and myself pretty ragged. it had yellow carpet and it was pretty well stained - i was a big time red wine drinker and, I admit it now, really loved to drink and drive. its amazing i didn't kill myself or anyone else, nor even get a ticket in all those years. i did get some really minor injuries - but it took quite a while before i seriously sobered up. i used to get so way out there, i'd drive around naked in my coat, pick up strange bums for the hell of it (and scare them half to death with my driving), etc., etc. They make OK stories now, but it is pretty scary to think about it....

Anyway, i think i was getting an estimate for some repair work at the old dealer on Van Ness in SF (long gone, of course) and saw one on the show room that was really lovely. it was ivory with a black top and it was used, although very little. they said they had sold it to an architect who decided he couldn't keep it. after i bought it, sure enough, one day i returned to find a business card under the wiper, from some asian architect - saying it was his old car, and would i like to sell it back to him! one thing i learned from the chocolate one was how hard it is to keep a dark car looking clean. intuition told me that a light car would be difficult - but it is just the opposite. the dark ones get just a little dusty or spotty and they look terrible. and, of course, its bad to just dust them off - scratches the finish.
By 2012 I had saved up enough to make a rash decision. I studied Scott Johnson's buying guide and test drove a few options on Craigslist, looking for one of the fuel-injected models that start like Toyotas.

Now in building of chaises, I tell you what,
There is always somewhere a weakest spot,—
In hub, tire, felloe, in spring or thill,
In panel, or crossbar, or floor, or sill,
In screw, bolt, thoroughbrace,—lurking still
Find it somewhere you must and will,—
Above or below, or within or without,—
And that's the reason, beyond a doubt,
A chaise breaks down, but doesn't wear out.
Though not an expert, I could tell some of these cars were sketchy, the older cars that looked so great in photos were clearly rickety antiques up close. Then I saw a 1982 Spider Veloce ("ivory with a black top"!) in Charlottesville and drove down to check it out. The seller (usually an MG trader) told me he drove it from Chicago, where he bought it from a dealer that had acquired it from California. After a thrilling test drive, I went home and looked up the Chicago ad which had dozens of photos, including a warranty certificate made out to Robert Manniello, M.D. (Privacy note: pretty sure he is a public figure: Dr. Bob must be the classic doo-*** DJ at KXFM in Long Beach.)
Tire Wheel Vehicle Hood Automotive tire

Wood Font Motor vehicle Gas Paint

Dr. Bob bought the Model 115.44 on April 20, 1982 from Piro Alfa at 1414 W. Pacific Coast Highway. It was now 30 years old with 149,607 miles, which the seller helpfully pointed out was only 3000 per year. He said he bought it for his wife, who had fond memories of a French road trip back in the day, but now as a pediatrician she was turned off by the logo depicting a snake devouring a child. Something like that.

I was sold and soon sent a deposit and bought a one-way train ticket to Charlottesville. The drive home was unsettling, it got dark and started raining, and the wipers seemed to be decorative accessories. I stopped at a Walmart and bought a spare battery, spooked by the faintly glowing alternator light, but completed the 100-mile drive without trouble or license plates (the California plates never made it from Chicago).

There are traces of age in the one-hoss-shay,
A general flavor of mild decay,
But nothing local, as one may say.
There couldn't be,—for the Deacon's art
Had made it so like in every part
That there wasn't a chance for one to start.
For the wheels were just as strong as the thills—
And the floor was just as strong as the sills,
And the panels just as strong as the floor,
And the whippletree neither less nor more.
And the back-crossbar as strong as the fore,
And spring and axle and hub encore.
Apart from some starboard rocker rust and the alternator light (which still glowed faintly with headlights on after changing the battery) the car seemed solid and I happily drove it for years to Cars & Coffee and (foot) races. Any buyer's remorse over my failure to negotiate on price faded as I enjoyed a genuine Oldtimer with only a general flavor of mild decay. It really started like a Toyota, allowing me to focus my amateur repair skills on keeping a troublesome 2006.5 Kia running.
Wheel Tire Vehicle Car Hood

Vehicle registration plate Automotive parking light Vehicle Car Hood

Automotive parking light Car Vehicle Wheel Tire

My car doesn't show the same TLC as some of the Cars & Coffee specimens, but at least all the parts that aren't missing are original! I did replace the master clutch cylinder after a year, but that seemed cosmetic as much as mechanical. Leaving Cars & Coffee one day, some wise guy cracked "well, it looks good" as I grinded my way out of the parking space. The second gear crunch also came standard, but I learned to double-clutch smoothly. I didn't quite manage 3000 miles per year, but I drove about a thousand a year, for a while.

Rectangle Slope Plot Line Font


In 2016 I got a fuel leak repaired at the local shop, which pointed out the melting engine mounts and increasing rust. I started driving more gently, perhaps a bit less often, hoping that passenger door operation was a sign of frame soundness. The car was parked in an underground lot, and every summer when we went on vacation the garage was scheduled for power washing. I arranged with a friendly neighbor to leave it in his backyard, hoping for little rain. In August 2021 I followed this procedure, only noticing at the last minute that the tank was nearly empty. I apologized to the neighbor, and he said it was no problem, he would just drive faster to arrive before running out of gas.

Coming back from vacation, the car was returned to its garage space, but it wouldn't start. I added two gallons but it would only crank and not start up. I was too embarrassed to ask the neighbor for information and began a year-long process of occasional troubleshooting. August 2022 came around and it was time for another vacation and power washing, so I had the car towed to my home garage, where I could work without disturbing neighbors and with the incentive to get it moving so the family SUV can get back under cover.

Following Greg and Eric's excellent L-Jet guide led to many discoveries, including a faulty drive relay and balky cold start injector. With many parts now 40 years old, replacement has been an easy decision. But it still won't run... New wires, cap and rotor arrived today from Centerline, so that's the next step, but I expect I will still be asking for assistance soon.

For now, could anyone please provide me with a copy of Jim Neill's electrical diagram for an '82 Spider Veloce? I'm jumping the drive relay to activate the main fuel pump, but I don't know if the in-tank pump is operating. The tow truck guy said the fuel was probably stale, so I pumped it out (through the new filter and CSI hose!) and added 5 gallons of 93 octane. I'll describe more of the repair saga in the likely event that the new wires don't do the trick.

Thanks to everyone for the invaluable tips on these cars.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,452 Posts
Looks like you joined the bb in 2013 and that this was your first post!! Awesome. It was a good read, I don’t have a wiring diagram for that year. I’m sure one will pop up shortly.
Do you have spark while cranking? Easy test and rules out half the stuff that couldgo wrong.
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Yep, I've been lurking hard but the time has come for me to give back to the community... so I can ask for more info!

Diagnosis has been irregular as I was uncomfortable wrenching in the public residential garage, so I preferred learning how to bench test the exotic drive relay at my desk instead of cranking the engine late at night with the hood up.

But eventually I recalled the Boy Scout fire triangle and decided to check the spark plugs. I pulled them out and noticed that #2 (counting from the front) was very stiff coming out.

They all looked pretty bad so I added plugs to my shopping list and used a quantity of Q-Tips to try and clean up without dropping any junk into the holes. #2 had some crud on the threads and after cleaning it went back in smoothly.
Wood Jewellery Auto part Metal Fashion accessory
Light Black Household hardware Camera accessory Auto part
Light Coil Auto part Household hardware Metal


I got new plugs and thought I would test them for spark before installing. Why not test them all at once? I did reflect long enough to consider that some dust might get into the open holes, so I set the old plugs in place to serve as, well, plugs.

I connected the new plugs to the wires and arranged them on the engine. My first Mess Up was not very dramatic but I did get it on video. When I turned the key the old plugs jumped up one by one before I panicked and shut it off. "At least I learned that the injectors are firing" I thought. (I was still learning the details of how this stuff works.)
Automotive fuel system Auto part Electrical wiring Automotive air manifold Vehicle

That test was too kinetic to observe a spark, but with only the #1 plug out I was able to record a little blue spark.
Hood Automotive tire Automotive lighting Grey Automotive exterior

I've read that not all sparks are equal for ignition, and this doesn't look like the intense white spark that should be visible in daylight, so I checked the wires. They didn't look bad but each one I could measure without removing the air duct had a different resistance, so I ordered a new set.

#1 10.3K ohm
#3 12.4K ohm
#4 16K ohm

Later I realized that the resistance increased in proportion to the length of each wire, but after ten+ years new wires are surely a good idea. The new set has much lower resistance:

#1 947 ohm
#2 3.8K ohm
#3 1.2K ohm
#4 2.6K ohm
Coil 873 ohm

I'll get those wires in tonight and update with any changes. The set came with a little packet of what must be dielectric grease ("contains dimethylpolysiloxane") and YouTube says to apply it just to the boots and ceramic part of the plugs, not on any connectors.
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Thanks to Swampdweller for sharing Papajam's beautiful wiring diagram. I won't circulate my copy but do recommend it to anyone interested, it's a work of art.

I put the new wires in, replacing the old wires one by one, using the existing cap and rotor for now.

The engine seems ready to run on starter fluid but dies after a few seconds. Here's a video:


Notes:

The jumper cables connect to the undercarriage in case the lower grounding strap is bad. The strap is present but pretty greasy and I didn't check or clean the connections. I've cleaned the ground connections at the AAV and at the intake near injector 4, and cleaned up the junction box on the left fender. I put in a new battery three weeks ago and cleaned the cable terminals and connection to the trunk floor. The battery measured 12.63V tonight after several cranks and previously measured 11.3V while cranking.

All the red hoses are new and the air duct was thoroughly cleaned and a small crack patched with OEM Shoe Goo a week ago.

The cold start injector was not spraying two weeks ago.

The coolant temperature sensor checked out:
2220 ohms at warm garage temperature (expected 2000-3000 at 68°F).

The thermo time switch checked out:
G to ground 33.2 ohms at 77° (expect 25-40 ohms)
W to ground 0 ohm (expect 0 ohms)
G to W 33 ohm (expect 25-40 ohms)

A noid light on the CSI connector illuminated steady (not flashing) while cranking. I doctored the CSI and it has expressed fuel but I haven't checked the spray pattern or volume.

The drive relay appears bad, so I turn on the fuel pump using a wire jumper at the relay harness. As long as the regulator allows fuel to circulate I hope this isn't harmful, but I don't leave it running long and don't intend to drive with the jumper. (The inertia switch was previously bypassed.)

Spark plugs are NGK Standard (BPR7ES) with factory gap. Fuel is 93 octane 10% ethanol purchased and added to the empty tank two weeks ago. I haven't looked at the in-tank pump. I replaced the fuel filter and adjacent soft lines three months ago. The fuel pump produces 2.35 bar at the CSI hose (shop manual says 2.3 to 2.7). Pinching the return line after the regulator raises pressure to 5.6 bar (shop manual says above 4). Sucking on a clear plastic tube attached to the top of the regulator produced no fuel.

Any suggestions for what to check next? I have some ideas but I don't know what's most likely to help.

  • Test all injector harnesses with noid light
  • Check resistance of all injectors
  • Check plugs for spark again
  • See if plugs are wet with fuel after cranking (is that good or bad?)
  • Check fuel pressure again
  • Find more grounds to clean
  • Replace more hoses?
  • Check in-tank fuel pump
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
so you say it starts and idles when jumping the drive/fuel relay socket, correct?
If that is true, the relay is bad. (Get a Vemo or Hüco relay to replace that big original Bosch ending in #001...not a KAE)

if it does run with the jumper, and, as you mentioned the CSI is not spraying (that is a separate system altogether, not connected to the main injectors) then the 4 main injectors must be firing.
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
so you say it starts and idles when jumping the drive/fuel relay socket, correct?
No, I have not yet gotten it to idle, even with my jumper wire running the main fuel pump.

I believe the big Bosch relay is dead and I will have to replace it before driving. Thanks for the tips on alternatives.
Tool Technology Electrical wiring Bag Auto part
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
No, I have not yet gotten it to idle, even with my jumper wire running the main fuel pump.

I believe the big Bosch relay is dead and I will have to replace it before driving. Thanks for the tips on alternatives.

View attachment 1749474
The good relays are HUCO 13 2019 and the VEMO V20-71-0001

if it does not run with fuel relay jumped, then I'd be checking:
both the pumps: put power to the pink/white (middle) contact on the in tank pump (leave the pink/white connected) that runs both pumps....listen that both are working
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Audio equipment Automotive lighting Gas

if pumps are running then is fuel getting to the rail?
fuel delivery: remove the hose entering the fuel rail....does fuel pump out whilst cranking?
the main injectors: do they pulse with the noid light?
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I checked the in-tank fuel pump. Connecting battery positive to the middle contact activated the main pump under the car but I couldn't hear anything from the in-tank pump. When I disconnected the voltage I heard brief gurgling from the tank, possibly return fuel from the engine dropping in.

Two weeks ago fuel pressure measured at the cold start injector hose was in spec: 2.35 bar while running the fuel pump with the wire jumper (shop manual says 2.3 to 2.7 bar), and 5.6 bar after pinching the return line closed (shop manual says above 4 bar).

I tested the cold start injector again. It was pretty grimy when I first took it out and wouldn't spray at all.
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Light Bicycle part Tire

I gave it a bath in an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner (hot tap water and a little dish soap), then made an adapter following a video and ran some carb cleaner through the injector, using spare Arduino parts to make a simple pushbutton circuit. I tried to spray cleaner through in the reverse direction as well but couldn't get a good seal.
Tool Asphalt Auto part Metal Road surface

The L-Jet guide says to have a friend turn the key while pointing the CSI toward a can, but it doesn't explain how to find friends, so I recorded video while turning the key. I got a nice spray pattern that continued about four seconds.
Automotive tire Hood Automotive lighting Tread Motor vehicle

I put the noid light on the CSI harness and it lit up brightly for the first four seconds while cranking. I don't understand why the light is steady rather than blinking but the CSI seems to be working.

I put the noid light on the fourth injector and it flashed on and off very faintly while cranking. I had to dim the lights to see the noid illuminate at all (both images taken with same exposure settings).
Vehicle Automotive lighting Hood Automotive tire Motor vehicle

This made me think the voltage was low, but perhaps "Got a dim noid light on cranking as the service manual states normal."

Next I can check resistance of the injectors; I'm not sure about checking voltage at the harness as the L-Jet guide warned about pointing multimeter probes toward the ECU.

The guide also warned about dropping parts into the void, and I am now missing a washer from a CSI Allen bolt and a Bosch injector harness clip. I can find washers, but haven't found a source for this square style of clip; the ones I see online have curved sides. Using a twist tie for now.
Wood Thigh Knee Asphalt Road surface
Product Electric blue Auto part Machine Engineering
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
so the csi is good, spray pattern for 4 secs looks good from here

the in-tank pump sounds as if it is bad
Remove it (6 screws, make sure you note the orientation of the float so it goes back correct) and inspect
make sure the filter sock comes out with it and check condition inside tank with a flashlight..also check the small rubber stepped hose, that needs to be in good condition or the pump sucks air when gas level is sort of below half.

the dim noid at #4 sounds no good either.
there is no problem testing voltage at the injector connector...choose one of the pins and test to ground...then test the other pin likewise to ground (KO)
what voltage do you get?
(what you do not do, is test ohms for anything on the ecu side of the loom)

those square spring clips are difficult to get hold of
you can afaik, only buy them complete, then use the clip onlythis is a set of 4, for instance
Bosch EV1 Style Fuel Injector Connector w/Terminals and Boots (4 Cyl pack) | eBay

securing the csi with a twist tie sounds an ok solution for now....often you find fallen down missing parts at a later date:)
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
The in-tank pump appears dead and sockless.
Wheel Wood Tool Metal Tire

I was quite surprised to see fuel oozing out as I loosened the screws from the fuel pump assembly. The tank is completely full. I thought I had emptied it and then added 5.1 gallons of fresh fuel two weeks ago.
Rectangle Font Slope Parallel Pattern

(high of 27.3 mpg on a road trip; low of 13.2 mpg before repairing leak)

The last fill-up was June 17, 2020 at 155,985 miles. Based on a recent average of 18 miles per gallon, the next fill-up should have been around 156,165 miles, or 156,204 to empty the 12.2-gallon capacity (leaving the 1.5-1.8 gallon reserve).

The odometer now shows 156,123, suggesting that the tank was not quite empty, but maybe some fuel was lost to evaporation, explaining the lower fuel efficiency as I drove less often.

On the tow truck driver's advice, two weeks ago I tried to empty the fuel that had been in the tank about a year. I jumped the drive relay and pumped fuel out the CSI hose into a five-gallon can until I heard suction noises coming from the tank area. I didn't want to run the pump dry so I may have quit too soon, but I got about 2.5 gallons and thought there was at most 3 gallons in the tank:

• previously reliable gauge showed empty on delivery to neighbor in August 2021
• added fuel from gallon can twice in summer 2021, once more in July 2022
• just checked and saw that the "gallon can" holds over two gallons
Font Gas Magenta Electronic device Gadget

So there was actually about 6 gallons in the tank when I tried to empty it, assuming it really was empty after my vacation. I pumped about 2.5 gallons into a 5-gallon can, took it to the recycling center, then filled the can with 5.1 gallons of 93 octane 10% ethanol and put all of that that in the tank. So that's 8-9 gallons accounted for in the tank now, and another mystery 4 gallons. If was in fact not empty when I went on vacation in summer 2021 then the tank is more than half full of fuel purchased over two years ago.

I didn't see the value of checking the in-tank pump while I was getting recommended pressure at the rail, but this test revealed an important problem; thanks for suggesting it.

You see, of course, if you're not a dunce,
How it went to pieces all at once,—
All at once, and nothing first,—
Just as bubbles do when they burst.
Little surprise that, after chasing down spark and electrical grounds and false air sources, that the third leg of the fire triangle would also be a source of trouble!

To check the pump, I disconnected the battery, photographed the top of the assembly, disconnected the wires and tucked them out of the way, then backed out the screws, mopping up the fuel that oozed out. I didn't see any sock. The float seems whole and felt empty and the stepped hose looks okay.
Amber Audio equipment Wood Cable Wire

Collar Eyewear Cable Strap Fashion accessory

Wheel Automotive tire Tire Rim Automotive design

When the pump was dry and with a fire extinguisher handy, I connected wires to the terminals of the pump and carefully touched them to the battery terminals. The pump did not respond to voltage with either polarity.
Wood Cable Wire Metal Tool

I recorded a video of the interior of the tank. I thought I saw a sock floating around, but it was just a reflection of my phone's logo.
Amber Automotive tire Rim Automotive lighting Wood
Automotive lighting Hood Automotive tire Amber Automotive exterior

I didn't do any electrical tests while gas was in the air. Looks like I'll have to get rid of this old fuel next.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
that doesn't even look that bad:)...a few crystals forming from stale gas
but the lack of filter sock is a shame...that is the only filter before the main pump.

have you tried tapping the pump to try get it started...might just be slightly stuck. (btw. it - and the main pump - should not be run when its dry, the fuel serves as a lubricant)

you took a photograph of the top before you removed it.....can you post it here, to see if the orientation was correct in the first place
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
My before photo does not show much context, but I can see by the corrosion patterns that I reinstalled it with the same orientation. The output hose reaches over the power connections, and the float arm in the tank is pointing toward the passenger rear wheel.
Automotive tire Gas Bicycle part Circle Wire

Wood Grey Gas Tints and shades Font

I'll try tapping the pump next time I pull it out, and shaking out any sock particles.

Carquest E260105 looks like a matching pump, with GMB 599-4110 a replacement sock.

Thanks for finding the connectors with the not-quick connect clips. It will be good to have spares as I drop more clips into the growing greasy dirt pile on the garage floor.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Font Gadget Automotive design
Automotive tire Font Auto part Electric blue Event

I also booked a ticket for a drive relay on the slow train from Latvia. Vemo part number V20-71-0001 "Fuel Pump Relay Fits BMW E30 Cabrio Sedan 1.8-2.7L 1982-1993". "Cross Reference OE number list" includes "BOSCH 0 280 230 001". $32.66 + $6 shipping to U.S. from WebBodyShop on eBay, delivery estimated between Mon, Sep 26 and Tue, Oct 11 (15-29 days). I'll check to see if it is a disguised Hüco.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
The output hose reaches over the power connections, and the float arm in the tank is pointing toward the passenger rear wheel.

View attachment 1749697
yes orientation looks correct
you'll have to finagle the pump sock through the hole, it likes to try fly off, but can be done with care...
(the PO probably tried a few times then said to heck with that and threw the sock in the trash 😁 )
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
I removed 7 gallons of fuel from the tank, filling my two jugs. I couldn't find any nearby shops that will accept old gasoline, so lunch hour tomorrow will be another trip to the hazardous waste center.

Tools used:
Gas containers
Shop-Vac
Hoses
Vacuum pump
Clamps
Motor vehicle White Automotive tire Automotive lighting Light


Steps:
1. Research methodology.

2. Unplug Shop-Vac, store far from vehicle.

3. Raise one end of the hose. Hold the other end alongside the car and mark the distance from the bottom of the tank to the fuel filler opening. Insert hose to mark so hose end is at bottom of tank. Clamp if not secure.
Vehicle Automotive lighting Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle


4. Use vacuum pump or other method to apply suction to hose. Repair vacuum pump when it falls to pieces.
Tool Gas Laser pointer Metal Office supplies


5. Check again to make sure jack stands are not Harbor Freight "Pittsburgh" brand.

6. Apply suction to hose, when fuel flows insert hose end into container and secure in place.
Hood Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive wheel system Gas


7. Flow through 8mm fuel hose is slow. Pass the time by marking the fuel level each minute and estimating time to completion, or wondering if the man dressed like a firefighter on the gas container was paid by Shop-Vac to claim that gasoline and fire never mix.
Hood Red Material property Publication Wood


8. Flow became very slow as the level of fuel in the container rose above the bottom of the tank, so I jacked up the corner just a little. When the 5-gallon container was full, I pinched the hose and transferred it to the 2-gallon container, with very little spillage or gas smell in the garage.

Total tank capacity is up to 14 gallons, two trips with my containers full, but I expect it will be difficult to get the last gallons out. I'll try to get a better look inside the tank when it is more nearly empty to see if there are any solids moving around.
Rectangle Font Parallel Number Screenshot


The new sock is expected Thursday. If I can't get the old pump to run, local shops carry the Carquest E260105.
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Status update since Tuesday:
  • Drained almost all the fuel from tank
  • Replaced the in-tank pump
  • Added 7 gallons of 93 octane 10% ethanol fuel purchased today
  • Replaced dropped CSI washer found under car and lost injector harness clip
  • Crank test to see if I might get a lucky start for my birthday
30-second video of today's cranking

(Mostly keeping my foot off the throttle, though blowing the plenum seems to happen more often to other models.)

The theory was that the drained fuel was bad, having discovered that half the tank was fuel purchased in 2020. This crank test seems about the same as before, using starter fluid before getting the cold start injector to spray.

Next theory is that the injectors are not firing, either old and corroded or not getting good voltage.

TMI:

With the trunk open and carpet removed, the sound of the in-tank pump working is conspicuous (still jumping the drive relay; replacement relay is in Riga customs).

Transfer station staff says the old gasoline will be burned in a cement factory or used to power a trash barge.
Sky Tree Gas Wood Event


Draining the last of the fuel was as slow and tedious as expected. I weighted a long, clear vinyl tube with a hex key and fed it through the tank sender opening to the bottom of the tank, raised the corner of the car a few inches and pulled on the end of the tube to get a slow flow going. There is some yellow residue in the tank, I was able to maneuver the tube to pull some of it out.
Fluid Cuisine Kitchen utensil Gas Dish


The residue is a fine powder; hopefully the sock and fuel filter will be up to the task.

There is some rust on the outside of the tank.
Hood Automotive lighting Automotive tire Water Window


I checked the fuel level sensor, getting no continuity at terminals with the float arm in any position.
White Wheel Automotive tire Light Product


(Lacrosse ball to block fuel vapors.)

The nipple on the tip of the sweeper is worn down. Adding Save your Jaeger S2 Fuel sender to the long-term list.
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Motor vehicle Eyewear Audio equipment


The stepped sleeve is cracked and does not fit snug. When I tried to pump the tank dry through the CSI hose, I stopped when I heard slurping in the tank, that must have been when air started entering from the loose sleeve.
Automotive tire Tire Wheel Tread Rim


The interior seems intact. My replacement pump was 2-3 mm longer than the original, so I trimmed a bit of material from each end of the sleeve, revealing less degraded material.
Product Liquid Fluid Circuit component Font


I will add a replacement stepped sleeve to my next Centerline order, or try the
submersible hose approach. A foot of Gates 3/8" I.D. submersible fuel line is $20 on eBay, not much savings or assurance but provides spare material and DIY points.
Ruler Office ruler Rectangle Font Tool


For now, keeping the tank more than halfway full should keep the leaky sleeve submerged.

To do list:
  • Remember to keep the battery charged. After cranking today it measured 12.7V.
  • Check flywheel sensors.
  • Noid test all injectors. Determine why noid light on #4 was so dim.
  • Check injectors for resistance.
  • Check injector harnesses for voltage.
  • Freezer/oven test aux air valve.
  • Look for more bad grounds; clean grounding strap underneath.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
bypass this thing (inertia switch) it is a safety switch left over from spica days, which they didn't bother to remove for the first years of the Bosch spiders .....just jump the wire
Automotive tire Bicycle tire Automotive exterior Electrical wiring Motor vehicle

a little later alfa removed it and added this nice little connector to join the wire.
Hood Automotive tire Electrical wiring Finger Electrician


when that grey inertia switch goes bad, or trips (the grey tube is the earlier type, more susceptible to failing), your fuel gets shut off.
You want that failure point out of the equation whilst you are trying to diagnose this no start.

With the correct relay, you do not need it. The 'tachymetric' fuel relay you have ordered shuts off the fuel in event of an accident.

ps. that stepped hose is toast....just get a new one when you fit the new pump/gauge. You will find if you have to replace the gauge sender that it doesn't just fit back into that metal cage so easily.
Just get it all done in the tank so you can close that and move on to the next step in the diagnosis...my advise;)

I know it is 30 bucks in USA!
but, half price in UK
FL121 CONNECTING HOSE IN TANK FUEL PUMP
 

·
Premium Member
1971 Spider (USA) 1750 Spica, 1974 Spider, 1976 Spider, 1981 Spider
Joined
·
518 Posts
Make that 40 bucks with US shipping from Centerline, plus sales tax!
CA is the way to go on this one.
If OKP didn’t make it so hard to pay, they’re also a better price at about €17, plus shipping.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
1982 Spider Veloce
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
The inertia switch was bypassed by a PO, but with an electrical tape splice instead of the nice factory connector. I am still jumping the drive relay with a wire (awaiting replacement relay shipment) and can hear both fuel pumps running now. The main pump was providing recommended pressure at the rail even when the in-tank pump was dead. The Papajam wiring diagram shows the inertia switch is between the drive relay and the fuel pumps, so if the replacement relay doesn't work I'll check that splice.

The fuel gauge now shows just under half full with seven gallons in the tank.
Gauge Steering part Speedometer Motor vehicle Car


That seems a little low, so I may have been mistaken in thinking the tank was nearly empty the last time I saw the car run in August 2021. I tried to test the fuel level gauge by measuring resistance between the two terminals that connect to the sensor (getting infinite resistance), but probably one is for fuel level and one is the low-level indicator and I should have measured each terminal against ground. I suppose I can try to calibrate the level sensor by bending the float arm when I pull it out to replace the stepped hose later.
Eyewear Cup Coffee Drinkware Kapeng barako


Thanks Dom for the shopping links! UK to US shipping costs more than the stepped hose, but maybe if I add motor mounts it will make sense.

Summing up...

Status:
Engine cranks but doesn't start

Best guess:
Injectors not spraying, not getting good voltage?

Fuel:
  • 7 gallons of fresh fuel in tank
  • in-tank pump replaced and runs while jumping drive relay
  • main pump runs and provides recommended pressure at rail
  • stepped hose needs replacement but should be submerged now
  • unable to pull fuel from top of regulator
  • CSI spraying for 4 seconds during startup
Electrical:
  • cleaned ground connection at AAV
  • cleaned ground connection at intake near Injector 4
  • cleaned junction box connections
  • new battery and spark plug wires
  • old distributor cap and rotor (have new replacements, not yet installed)
  • new plugs produce spark
  • underside grounding strap present, dirty and not checked
  • have not checked flywheel sensors
  • noid light blinks very dim on injector 4 harness
  • drive relay bad, jumping while awaiting replacement
Air:
  • replaced hoses connecting to air duct
  • removed and cleaned air duct, patched small crack at junction
  • cleaned out oil vapor separator
  • have not hot/cold tested AAV
  • air filter is old, looks okay
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,455 Posts
I tried to test the fuel level gauge by measuring resistance between the two terminals that connect to the sensor (getting infinite resistance), but probably one is for fuel level and one is the low-level indicator
correct
fuel gauge sender is the violet wire
grounding that should make the dash gauge go to max (that at least tells you the dash gauge is ok)

low level is the white/black wire
so grounding that should make the low level warning light go on.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,452 Posts
Make that 40 bucks with US shipping from Centerline, plus sales tax!
CA is the way to go on this one.
If OKP didn’t make it so hard to pay, they’re also a better price at about €17, plus shipping.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
OKP is absolutely brutal for shipping costs though. Seems like their min is $70 for shipping, at least that’s my experience. They are the very last on my list of places to spend money.
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top