[Vintre]

Hello All,

I have a 1991 Spider.

During the Winter break I decided to attack my water pump leak.

I replaced the water pump with a new one.

I used a new gasket as well as Permatex Right Stuff Gasket maker on both sides of the gasket. Yes, I know, a little heavy, but lets move on to the problem.

I replaced the two studs at 5 and 7 o'clock with #6 - 30mm bolts. I used thread sealer on those bolts.

Good news is that I no longer have a water leak. Bad news is I now have an oil leak coming from the water pump.

I have narrowed the leak down to 2 possible locations.

I highly think the leak is coming from a hole at 6 o'clock.

Few questions:

1. Is there supposed to be a plug in the 6 o'clock hole?

2. I will be getting a new gasket, but what did I miss or should do? I really dont want to do this again.

Below are a few pictures of the seal I used, the holes I am talking about and what that area looked like when I removed the new pump.

Thanks in advance.

Vin

 

[jcslocum]

i can see the hole in the new gasket that goes around the hole at 6. The hole does not appear to be threaded as the one to the left of it is. I guess your old gasket didn't have a hole at that location and blocked it off with the water pump over it. Is there a hole in the water pump??

 

[PAUGNUT1275]

oil leak

That hole is the oil return from the water pump drive back into the chain case. It is not supposed to be plugged up. I suspect that you didn't get all the old gasket off the mounting surface, allowing oil to bypass. It can also come out of the lower hole for the tach drive mount. Your car has an electric tach, but the holes may still be in your replacement water pump. Actually, maybe you got the wrong waterpump. I think that the Motronic spider water pump is different from the earlier cars.
KG

 

[Vintre]

Here is a picture of the bottom of the water pump where the oil leak is coming from.

 

[Vintre]

i can see the hole in the new gasket that goes around the hole at 6. The hole does not appear to be threaded as the one to the left of it is. I guess your old gasket didn't have a hole at that location and blocked it off with the water pump over it. Is there a hole in the water pump??

The pump I removed looked to be the original water pump as there was no "paper" type gasket. Looked like a liquid gasket was used. I have seen that type in other areas of the car so I guessed it was original. So, no, the old gasket did not cover the hole.

I posted a picture of the water pump. There is no hole in the water pump that goes all the way through but there is a relief in the casting.

Thanks,

Vin

 

[Vintre]

I suspect that you didn't get all the old gasket off the mounting surface, allowing oil to bypass. It can also come out of the lower hole for the tach drive mount. Your car has an electric tach, but the holes may still be in your replacement water pump. Actually, maybe you got the wrong waterpump. I think that the Motronic spider water pump is different from the earlier cars.
KG

PAUGNUT1275,

Here is a picture of the new water pump. Yes the pump is different from earlier years, but I am sure I got the right one.

The new pumps don't have the hole for the tach drive mount, so it couldnt be from there.

Thanks,

Vin

 

[Andrew]

On earlier pumps with mechanical tach drive a batch of them leaked out of a poorly installed thrust button at the bottom of the tach drive hole. But I guess these S4 pumps don't have that configuration?
Andrew

 

[PAUGNUT1275]

oil leak

Yes, that's the right pump for you Motronic engine. Look for a gasket leak or a porous casting perhaps.
KG

 

[Vintre]

Look for a gasket leak or a porous casting perhaps.
KG

Call if foresight or fear of what is now actually happening, I took a picture of the engine surface before I installed the gasket.

Yes, you can see a wee bit of the original liquid type gasket in that area (beige colour) but how perfect does it have to be?

I would have thought that this little amount would have been covered by the Permatex Gasket maker or the paper gasket.

Do you think this tiny bit could have caused the leak?

Vin

 

[Tifosi]

Mabe a goofy question, but are you sure oil was coming from the pump and not the front crank seal?

 

[Vintre]

Mabe a goofy question, but are you sure oil was coming from the pump and not the front crank seal?

100% sure!

I couldn't take a picture or I would have posted. I am on the hunt for leaks this Winter.

I overpaid on a leak finding kit, $45 which conisists of a small flashlight that emits a blue light and some dye you put in the oil.

When you use the blue light flashlight, the oil shows up orange. It is really, really helpful.

Anyways, I saw the "orange" oil pooling just under the front crankshaft seal so that was also my thought, however, after getting under the car and looking up, you can clear see the oil leak is coming from the bottom of the water pump.

100% sure.

Thanks,

Vin

 

[PAUGNUT1275]

oil leak

It's doubtful tha the small amount of old silicone gasket would be enough to cause the leak. I was thinking of a pieces of "paper" gasket, when I suggested that as a cause. Can you get the car up on a lift and watch the leak with the engine running? The last time this happened, we did this and observed the tach drive bolt leaking. You obviously don't have a drive, but maybe the leak will make itself apparent. There is also a florescent powder that can be put into the oil supply and you observe with a black light. Very "old school", but may still be available.
KG

 

[ghnl]

Where your arrow points to 'plug missing?' - make sure there is no debris clogging that passage. As stated, it is a drain back hole for oil to return to the sump. There shouldn't be any pressure of oil there - it just drains by gravity. But if that passage were clogged that area could get pressurized encouraging a leak.

Be careful if using any RTV gasket maker goop. Some is good but too much is not! It can squeeze out to areas it is not intended to be.

 

[jcslocum]

Check the flatness of the pump flange in that area with a straight edge just to make sure. The 2 bolts that hold it are quite far apart so there isn't that much clamping force, so if there is junk or not a flat pump it could leak. I like 3-bond for these areas in a very thin coat on the gasket it's also called ultimate grey by permatex. Really good stuff. You should also use some thread sealant on the bolts so that oil can't weep out from them. They go thru into the timing case and can bring oil out thru the threads.

 

[Vintre]

That hole is the oil return from the water pump drive back into the chain case. It is not supposed to be plugged up.

Thanks for all the help.

If that is a oil return, looking at the first picture of the gasket, the gasket goes all around that hole. Wouldn't that stop the oil from returning to the crank case?

I would have put the Permatex gasket maker around that hole.

Do you think that would cause the oil leak?

Vin

 

[jcslocum]

No, the cavity in the pump housing allows the oil to run back. Make sure not to clog it up with sealer.

 

[msiert]

Vince...............Man I'm sorry this is happening to you have you done anything recently to anger the Alfa Gods.

I can't offer any help other then to say that this too shall pass and you'll be a stronger man because of it.........good luck in finding the fix.

I have thought about using that leak tracer I would think it is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Vintre]

Looking at the gasket, looks like there was a blowout just below this thing.

Can you tell me what it is and if there should be no additional gasket sealant around it? Just the paper?

Thanks,

Vin

 

[Vintre]

Here is a picture of the gasket in that area.

You can see a path where I think the oil blew thru the gasket.

I hope this will help understand what happened so I don't do it again.

Thanks,

Vin

 

[ghnl]

I see gobs of RTV type gasket maker/sealer. I think it is likely you got a gob into/over the oil drain hole.

The shaft is the 'axle' for the timing chain idler gear.