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I kind of agree. You can loose 10k and the car or spend 10k and keep the car
Id pull the entire suspension & driveline out, possibly pull the doors as well and pull the frame and see where you stand
Id assume the bondo fender is junk and needs to be cut off and / or reworked depending on whats in there
Have the engine, gear box n dif gone thru n freshened
Then id get a new suspension assembled, throw on some fresh rims n tires n see where you're at
At least then you'd something to play with
The car isnt that bad short of the fender n frame, rest is 40 year old car stuff that just needs to be done
can put it off n do one piece at a time or just bite the bullet n make it your own
In the end you'll have a cool euro GTV
 

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Discussion Starter #163
Clarification on the condition of the car

Hmm, I think there is some confusion on the state of the car (I have obviously focused on the issue as I was trying to address them according to my goals).

Frame: As mentioned, the frame was impacted during whatever accident the car was in. However it was repaired. Instead of trying to twist back the portion holding the engine mount and the driver side upper control arm, they opted to reinforce it instead. THAT is why the body shop was reluctant to pull the frame as the consequences would be unpredictable. In the shape it is in, the car is safe to drive. Both the mechanics at Continental Motors and at Freeman Frame were clear about this.

Engine: The engine runs smoothly now that the valves were adjusted. I have don't have updated compression numbers but it is night and day when actually driving it. There are no leaks nor any smoke. It starts up easily and with the newly installed fan shroud helping with proper cooling, this is not a problem area anymore.

Transmission and clutch: Except for engaging second gear, it is fine. I did learn that if I shift at 2k rpm from 1st to 2nd, it will engage smoothly and no fancy footwork is needed.

Interior: small bits and pieces are missing or broken (passenger door handle, ceiling light covers, and the speedometer is not working). These are cheap and easy fixes. The seats are in great condition, the dash is not cracked or sun damaged so the interior looks great.

Rust: Definitely in the trunk lid sill and any exposed metal underneath. Structurally though, the jack points and rocker panels are ok. Whatever rust there is, I do not think it will propagate any further given the climate here.

Steering, alignment, and suspension: Steering is a bit vague on center and not on par with modern cars. If I kept the car, i would want to replace all the bushings and tie rods to make it more enjoyable but it's ok for regular driving. The car pulls a tiny bit to the left. Freeman Frame said that this could easily be compensated for (remember how the left side front wheel sits a little too far forward) but it's simply not big enough of an issue to address. The broken rear spring will have to be replaced but it still performs its duty. Otherwise, the other suspensions (and steering) components are intact but old. Hence my original plan to just replace everything. If I make that type of investment though, I would want to start with a frame that does not have this history and repairs which is how we are at the present point.

There is absolutely no reason to go for some extreme solution such as parting out the car. This is not a concourse car but it's also not a junker. Especially with the recent fixes (and addressing a couple more items like the spring), it can be an enjoyable weekend car for years to come. Unfortunately, I want a vehicle I can flog around Skyline Blvd and take to the track and this is not that the car that can be turned into that type of vehicle. This is a weekend cruiser, not a potential racer.
 

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I think in the long run it is often more advantageous to buy a car that has been restored to a decent level, while the upfront cost may be a bitter pill to swallow, you generally get more bang for the buck buying this way. It doesn't take long to easily surpass the cost of a restored car when you start off with a project that nickles and dimes you to the point which can easily have you thousands of dollars higher than the cost of a restored car. Just my thoughts.
 

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I personally don't see any better opportunity to make a car to flog around in than with one that has had previous issues. this gives you the opportunity to replace broken parts with stronger race bits and beef everything up while your at it. Why start out with a perfect example? especially when it comes to steering and suspension stuff.

I think of this as an opportunity!
 

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71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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Mr. Evermore, At the risk of being blunt it's not a weekend cruiser. We don't know it's safe to drive (someone saw the tires are twenty years old, right?) and most likely hasn't been driven much at all in the last couple of decades. I've had a lot of Alfas and I have to disagree that when you fix the rear spring the car will still be somewhat level. It won't. It's bent. If you are honest and sell it for what it's worth you are going to take a bath on the car. If you want to do what BHCC did to you that is of course up to you and your conscience but hopefully you won't. I guess I missed the part about it being reinforced but reinforcing a bent car just ain't right.
You should insist any potential buyer get a PPI or include this link and sell it for what's it's really worth or keep it as a parts car. The moral of this story is DON'T BUY A CAR FROM SOMEONE WHO WON'T LET YOU DO A PPI! Good luck and I sincerely mean that.
 

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Mr. Evermore, At the risk of being blunt it's not a weekend cruiser. We don't know it's safe to drive (someone saw the tires are twenty years old, right?) and most likely hasn't been driven much at all in the last couple of decades. I've had a lot of Alfas and I have to disagree that when you fix the rear spring the car will still be somewhat level. It won't. It's bent. If you are honest and sell it for what it's worth you are going to take a bath on the car. If you want to do what BHCC did to you that is of course up to you and your conscience but hopefully you won't. I guess I missed the part about it being reinforced but reinforcing a bent car just ain't right.
You should insist any potential buyer get a PPI or include this link and sell it for what's it's really worth or keep it as a parts car. The moral of this story is DON'T BUY A CAR FROM SOMEONE WHO WON'T LET YOU DO A PPI! Good luck and I sincerely mean that.
+1
 
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I feel for Evermore. I hope it works out and we have another Alfisti to wave at when on our drives
I would feel for him more if he were making a more honest effort to sell the car, and not trying to saddle someone else with the problems he found at a higher price than he himself paid. Like I said, I actually went to look at this car before I knew about this thread, and I feel he was less than honest in his Craigslist ad or in his verbal statements. That is not cool.

On the other hand, there's now a documented paper trail on the known issues with this car.
 

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71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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Higher price! Holy Moley, he's got some big ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #171
I would feel for him more if he were making a more honest effort to sell the car, and not trying to saddle someone else with the problems he found at a higher price than he himself paid. Like I said, I actually went to look at this car before I knew about this thread, and I feel he was less than honest in his Craigslist ad or in his verbal statements. That is not cool.

On the other hand, there's now a documented paper trail on the known issues with this car.
- Asking price is never the actual selling price on craigslist. I have bought and sold about 20 vehicles on cl (the last one on Monday actually) and that has held true very single time. I obviously know what the lowest price (and how much of a loss) I am willing to take but I obviously don't divulge that ahead of time. Kind of silly I have to point this out at all.

- Whether you agree with the way the car is represented on cl is a matter of opinion. The point of a listing is start the conversation and I have been thorough in my follow up emails to interested parties. As for saying that my verbal statements were less than honest, that is simply untrue.

- As a person knowledgeable in Alfa Romeos and expecting a problem free euro-spec GTV in the $20k range, you were really only hoping to take advantage of some that did not understand the value of their car.

- I had another conversation with Tom Sahines yesterday who has examined the car in person. He thought that the car is safe to drive and properly priced in the $20k range. Given his experience and knowledge of the actual car, will take that as the definite word on the matter.
 

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Yep, it's my opinion, for whatever it's worth. Most likely you and I just have very different selling philosophies, and I'll leave it at that.

With regards to my personal motivation, though, I can tell you you're wrong. I have bought and sold relatively few cars in my life, but I've never tried to rip anyone off on either side of the situation. Honestly I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I was most definitely not expecting a trailer queen for $29K.
 

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71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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I'm rather astonished you would take anything Tom Sahines (I'm assuming that's BHCC) says as accurate. His fiduciary responsibility isn't to you, it's to himself. He has every reason to say that, if he doesn't you can take him to small claims court. You probably should anyway. Print out this thread, show it to the judge and you stand a good chance of getting a judgement. Whether you ever collect is a different matter. Anyone that sells a car with a broken spring and says it's safe to drive should be president. I wonder if BHCC has a facebook page?
 
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Discussion Starter #174
I'm rather astonished you would take anything Tom Sahines (I'm assuming that's BHCC) says as accurate. His fiduciary responsibility isn't to you, it's to himself. He has every reason to say that, if he doesn't you can take him to small claims court. You probably should anyway. Print out this thread, show it to the judge and you stand a good chance of getting a judgement. Whether you ever collect is a different matter. Anyone that sells a car with a broken spring and says it's safe to drive should be president. I wonder if BHCC has a facebook page?
oh no, Tom isn't connected with BHCC at all. He's a local Alfa expert and does restorations. He was mentioned to me by multiple people on Alfabb. His assessment was obviously based having replaced the spring.


Now as for legal recourse with BHCC regarding the spring.. I dont have a screenshot of how the car was described but I was sent a Vehicle Inspection Sheet that says the shock absorbers/suspension/struts were "Checked and okay". That is obviously wrong but not sure it's enough of a legal basis to go after them.....
 

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71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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Suspension is pretty important. If not represented accurately it's fraud. I would point that out to them and at a minimum try to negotiate the price. What have you got to lose? I said my piece on their FB page.
 

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I trust Tom, but if asked to make an offer on it, I doubt he'd pony up 20k for it as it sits, better ones to be found without the issues
I agree that if you're truly looking to make a track car, you have the best one already.
pull the back seat put in a bar if you really want to -- I dont think until you get out there its needed
unless you dont trust it n its all smoke, youre gonna lose too much on the deal to make it worth it to find another n start over
take what you have n make it right
Make frame right, add tuneable suspension bits, buy some great tires n wheels for playing and you'll have a great car that you can build on
For me, knowing what I know about alfa engines and how easy they blow bearings, Id tighten up the engine, gearbox n rear end to avoid catastrophic damage while "playing".
but thats me and Ive only learned that by not doing it, several times over.
At that point you still have a stock looking car which will recoup its value
May not be a 40k car, but def not the 15k car you have now
 

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Discussion Starter #177
original listing..

the listing is still working so here was the description of the car as given:
https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1974-alfa-romeo-gtv-2000-c-8058.htm

"1974 Alfa Romeo GTV 2000

This beautiful 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 seen here is available in silver with black interior. It comes equipped with a manual transmission, wood steering wheel, dual Weber carburetors, solid wheels and includes the spare tire. An extremely clean and presentable example and as well as being an excellent original California car which is mechanically sound. "
 

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Discussion Starter #178 (Edited)
and here is the vehicle inspection report I was provided with... while there are lots of inaccuracies, the fact that the suspension was checked ok while a spring was broken is quite something...

 

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71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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That car wasn't from California. In Texas the title shows the last owner. Who was on the title when you bought it? Knowing the previous owner would help a lot. Seriously, I'd check on the small claims court in your area (I'm not sure where you are located) but most have limits that if you win would put you about even assuming you can collect. Have you mentioned the broken spring to them and let them know they misrepresented the car?
 
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