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Have you guys seen this design ?
New GTV
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photoshop or not, if this thing finally -if-will find the road to be a production car we can also agree that THIS must be our next car especially if it will be a RWD! What else would we expect in our dreams considering that we have now 2011.This is exactly how a new 105 bertone should be like...BTW, Mercedes done the same, I guess now is the time for the alfa, too
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173 Posts
Cartoon retro
Though I would love to see something small, light and rwd in the spirit of the GTV, this is not it. It is too exaggerated. There is no subtly here. The wheels are too big. The fender line too pronounced. It is a cartoon GTV. It reminds me of our current Camaro. It is a cartoon version of a '60s car.
It makes me expect a Viper engine and chassis underneath...
~Chris
Though I would love to see something small, light and rwd in the spirit of the GTV, this is not it. It is too exaggerated. There is no subtly here. The wheels are too big. The fender line too pronounced. It is a cartoon GTV. It reminds me of our current Camaro. It is a cartoon version of a '60s car.
It makes me expect a Viper engine and chassis underneath...
~Chris
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173 Posts
Modern retro GTA
I would love to see this, but I don't think it is possible. No manufacturer wants to build a small, light, 4 cylinder, rwd, stripped out and expensive driver's car. Their are only a handful of customers for this car. We will have to get it from Alfaholics.
Here is what I want: GTV/GTA replacement with a body designed by a major design house (Bertone, Pinifarina, Ital Design, Zagato, etc.) with no more than 1100 kg weight, manual steering, un-assisted brakes, no abs, no traction control, no drive by wire throttle, manual windows, 15 x 8" wheels, 200 hp 2.0 4 cyl or optional 300 hp 3.0 V6. Call it GTV R, GTV Clubsport, GTV+, whatever.
Alfa Romeo will never make this car. There is only one buyer for it (ME!) and it gives the FIAT lawyers nightmares. That is why people do this themselves with older cars.
I would be very happy if they even build a Normale version of this car with 170 hp, Air Conditioning, power windows, ABS, etc. if it was rwd and 1100 kg. Sadly, I don't think there are many buyers for this car, either.
~Chris
Joseph-
I would love to see this, but I don't think it is possible. No manufacturer wants to build a small, light, 4 cylinder, rwd, stripped out and expensive driver's car. Their are only a handful of customers for this car. We will have to get it from Alfaholics.
Here is what I want: GTV/GTA replacement with a body designed by a major design house (Bertone, Pinifarina, Ital Design, Zagato, etc.) with no more than 1100 kg weight, manual steering, un-assisted brakes, no abs, no traction control, no drive by wire throttle, manual windows, 15 x 8" wheels, 200 hp 2.0 4 cyl or optional 300 hp 3.0 V6. Call it GTV R, GTV Clubsport, GTV+, whatever.
Alfa Romeo will never make this car. There is only one buyer for it (ME!) and it gives the FIAT lawyers nightmares. That is why people do this themselves with older cars.
I would be very happy if they even build a Normale version of this car with 170 hp, Air Conditioning, power windows, ABS, etc. if it was rwd and 1100 kg. Sadly, I don't think there are many buyers for this car, either.
~Chris
Alfa has already 170Hp from their 1750 turbo engine, I mean for 3 years now...a very impressive motor indeed. Now, it is near impossible for alfa to produce a car with 1.100 kgr weight, nobody can unless we are talking for race versions. As far as I know from very first hands in the alfa factory have many finished projects (complete cars, RWD...) and pretty soon we will meet them in real. One notice here: the actual and real problem would be to which target group they will want to get in touch...so, in my opinion, prices will be high! And then there might be the real problem, suppose the new "bertone" wants to share with BMW's M3, which seems pretty logical. Is alfa ready to compete BMW's quality?
Alfa MUST GIVE NEW REAL SPORTY CARS ACCORDING TO THEIR HERITAGE BUT NOT ON THE HIGH CLASS PRICE FIELD, cause nobody in these days can reach Germans quality, this is my 2c
Alfa MUST GIVE NEW REAL SPORTY CARS ACCORDING TO THEIR HERITAGE BUT NOT ON THE HIGH CLASS PRICE FIELD, cause nobody in these days can reach Germans quality, this is my 2c
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173 Posts
Seabird-
The S2000 is heavier than what I would prefer and I don't love their looks. But I don't love the looks of my Milano either! Do you own an S2000?
I admit to prejudging the S2000. I don't want to like it, but I have never driven one. I was wrong about the NSX too. I thought it was a Ferrari copy and expected it to have all the character of an Acura Legend. I drove a friends NSX and loved the motor. It sounded great and had lots of character.
The "Normale" suggested above sounds like a pretty, Italian MX5 coupe... The problem is, can Alfa Romeo built it and sell it for 30K USD?
The S2000 is heavier than what I would prefer and I don't love their looks. But I don't love the looks of my Milano either! Do you own an S2000?
I admit to prejudging the S2000. I don't want to like it, but I have never driven one. I was wrong about the NSX too. I thought it was a Ferrari copy and expected it to have all the character of an Acura Legend. I drove a friends NSX and loved the motor. It sounded great and had lots of character.
The "Normale" suggested above sounds like a pretty, Italian MX5 coupe... The problem is, can Alfa Romeo built it and sell it for 30K USD?
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173 Posts
M3
I agree. An M3 is a great car, but it is the wrong target. Who would have guessed in the '60's that BMW's 2002 would evolve into a 1680 kg, 400+ HP V8 musclecar? I can easily see Alfa building an M3 competitor because all of Europe has gone the mega HP direction.
Here in the USA, the only difference between a Mustang and an M3 now is the Mustang is not as nicely finished and is 4/7 the price. On track performance is the same.
Is there a market niche for equally fast, less luxurious, smaller, lighter and cheaper Alfas?
I do think it is possible to build a 1100 kg car. Lotus does it. The 2012 Maxda MX5 is said to weight 1000 kg. With increased HP comes bigger axles, driveshaft, brakes, etc. Every kg saved can make these parts lighter too. You can't have 400 HP and 1100 kg together. You have to choose one or the other. 200-300 hp and 1100 kg should be possible.
I hope that Alfa returns to building rwd sports cars, coupes and sedans. We will see what happens in the next 5 years.
~Chris
Alfaroad-
I agree. An M3 is a great car, but it is the wrong target. Who would have guessed in the '60's that BMW's 2002 would evolve into a 1680 kg, 400+ HP V8 musclecar? I can easily see Alfa building an M3 competitor because all of Europe has gone the mega HP direction.
Here in the USA, the only difference between a Mustang and an M3 now is the Mustang is not as nicely finished and is 4/7 the price. On track performance is the same.
Is there a market niche for equally fast, less luxurious, smaller, lighter and cheaper Alfas?
I do think it is possible to build a 1100 kg car. Lotus does it. The 2012 Maxda MX5 is said to weight 1000 kg. With increased HP comes bigger axles, driveshaft, brakes, etc. Every kg saved can make these parts lighter too. You can't have 400 HP and 1100 kg together. You have to choose one or the other. 200-300 hp and 1100 kg should be possible.
I hope that Alfa returns to building rwd sports cars, coupes and sedans. We will see what happens in the next 5 years.
~Chris
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375 Posts
I have to agree with Chris. I don't think the M3 is the answer. It's a lot of money and falls short of the performance benchmark. It has become too much a yupies road car.
When I went shopping for a new performance car I put my money down on a stripped C6. 3200# 430 HP 480 lbs-ft and yes you can shut off the computer. All for less than 40k. Their price has gone up but its still the best performance value in my opinion. It's a great driving car despite what top gear likes to say.
Is it an Alfa, no. But then again I live in the USA and i don't get the choice
And I am building my own Gta replica I love the body and the simplicity of the classics. And I realize those types of cars could never be built in this day and age. Ralf Nadar killed the classics. But what the heck get a driver gtv and a twinspark out of Europe and build the perfect toy.
If you want to see my perfect toy, my TS conversion retro rod head over here: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-conversions/174091-gtv-ts.html
Miguel
When I went shopping for a new performance car I put my money down on a stripped C6. 3200# 430 HP 480 lbs-ft and yes you can shut off the computer. All for less than 40k. Their price has gone up but its still the best performance value in my opinion. It's a great driving car despite what top gear likes to say.
Is it an Alfa, no. But then again I live in the USA and i don't get the choice
And I am building my own Gta replica
I love the body and the simplicity of the classics. And I realize those types of cars could never be built in this day and age. Ralf Nadar killed the classics. But what the heck get a driver gtv and a twinspark out of Europe and build the perfect toy.If you want to see my perfect toy, my TS conversion retro rod head over here: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-conversions/174091-gtv-ts.html
Miguel
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173 Posts
Ts gtv
Seabird-
I didn't recognize your name, but I read your TS GTV thread. Great paint color.
I think your GTV will be much more my cup of tea that a Honda S2000.
I agree about C6 performance/dollar. They are hard to touch. I drove a Z07 and loved it... except for the seats! Amazing throttle response. But for me... too big, too many luxuries, too much HP, too much tire. These cars are very effective on a racetrack, but they don't "dance".
I think the key to all this is 1100 kg or less. If you do that, you can bin the power steering, power brakes, 17" wheels, huge brakes, etc. A 270 HP, 1100 kg modern GTV would accelerate with the M3 and be lots more fun.
The "Very Modified GTV" that Daron at Vintage Customs is building for a customer in California should weight 820 kg and the TS motor that Wes Ingram built for it dynoed at 198 whp, IIRC. This GTV should leave an M3 for dead. However, I'm pretty sure that it cost more than M3 dollars to build.
So... will Alfa build our kind of GTV? I doubt it. Luckily, they built beautiful GTVs in the 60's and 70's and we can build these to our dream spec ourselves.
Keep up the good work on yours.
~Chris
Seabird-
I didn't recognize your name, but I read your TS GTV thread. Great paint color.
I think your GTV will be much more my cup of tea that a Honda S2000.
I agree about C6 performance/dollar. They are hard to touch. I drove a Z07 and loved it... except for the seats! Amazing throttle response. But for me... too big, too many luxuries, too much HP, too much tire. These cars are very effective on a racetrack, but they don't "dance".
I think the key to all this is 1100 kg or less. If you do that, you can bin the power steering, power brakes, 17" wheels, huge brakes, etc. A 270 HP, 1100 kg modern GTV would accelerate with the M3 and be lots more fun.
The "Very Modified GTV" that Daron at Vintage Customs is building for a customer in California should weight 820 kg and the TS motor that Wes Ingram built for it dynoed at 198 whp, IIRC. This GTV should leave an M3 for dead. However, I'm pretty sure that it cost more than M3 dollars to build.
So... will Alfa build our kind of GTV? I doubt it. Luckily, they built beautiful GTVs in the 60's and 70's and we can build these to our dream spec ourselves.
Keep up the good work on yours.
~Chris
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465 Posts
The trouble with modern performance cars is that you have to be travelling at warp speed before you get a buzz from it.
I drove my GTV along a great twisty road this morning (Mc Carr's Creek Rd - for the locals), hardly got out of third gear and had a buzz doing 80 kph (50 mph).
That car in the photo looks ok except for the crap kicked-up nose. A step nose would be much prettier.
Cheers,
Wazza.
I drove my GTV along a great twisty road this morning (Mc Carr's Creek Rd - for the locals), hardly got out of third gear and had a buzz doing 80 kph (50 mph).
That car in the photo looks ok except for the crap kicked-up nose. A step nose would be much prettier.
Cheers,
Wazza.
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375 Posts
Chris, thanks for the kind words. I am excited about the build too. Going to be spending the whole day over at the shop today
A new M3 is $60k even a used one is going to set you back $45-50k. And what do you get for your dollars? An over weight pig. Sure its quick. Sure it goes around the track with a respectable time. But i don't think you are going to find that raw feeling that a more single minded car would bring. It's just a lot of cake for a luxe sports car with to much focus on the luxury.
I think the two closest cars on the road to your design criteria are the Lotus and the S2000. Of the two, having driven both, the S is a better road car. The Lotus almost boarders on a track only weapon. (Maybe that is because I live in South Florida). And the price tag of the Lotus is a little steep.
You want to talk about a fun car. CooperS. It's just not rear wheel drive. Loads of fun! And priced right. Though it does not have the displacement to keep up at high speeds. My mom has one. I used to drive it when she first bought it. Had to stop cause I thought I was going to get arrested. I was driving around town like I was in a rally race. That's actually my target car for the GTV-TS build.
As far as Alfa building anything like these cars....I guess the Mito fits in the category of the mini. And for a future build (4C) their target is most likely the M3 market. Could Alfa build a true driver's car, yes. Does it make sense for them, no.
Either way for you and me Chris we should not be holding our breath the promised return is as likely now as it has ever been. Which is not good for us on this side of the pond.
I think a Gtv-ts project is do able for $30k. I am still well under that on my build.
Miguel
A new M3 is $60k even a used one is going to set you back $45-50k. And what do you get for your dollars? An over weight pig. Sure its quick. Sure it goes around the track with a respectable time. But i don't think you are going to find that raw feeling that a more single minded car would bring. It's just a lot of cake for a luxe sports car with to much focus on the luxury.
I think the two closest cars on the road to your design criteria are the Lotus and the S2000. Of the two, having driven both, the S is a better road car. The Lotus almost boarders on a track only weapon. (Maybe that is because I live in South Florida). And the price tag of the Lotus is a little steep.
You want to talk about a fun car. CooperS. It's just not rear wheel drive. Loads of fun! And priced right. Though it does not have the displacement to keep up at high speeds. My mom has one. I used to drive it when she first bought it. Had to stop cause I thought I was going to get arrested. I was driving around town like I was in a rally race. That's actually my target car for the GTV-TS build.
As far as Alfa building anything like these cars....I guess the Mito fits in the category of the mini. And for a future build (4C) their target is most likely the M3 market. Could Alfa build a true driver's car, yes. Does it make sense for them, no.
Either way for you and me Chris we should not be holding our breath the promised return is as likely now as it has ever been. Which is not good for us on this side of the pond.
I think a Gtv-ts project is do able for $30k. I am still well under that on my build.
Miguel
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173 Posts
M3 = $70k +
Miguel-
Well, I suppose you could order an M3 with a cloth interior and no options. The ones at my local dealer all have leather, heated seats, metallic paint, moonroofs, navigation, upgraded sound system, USB port ($400!!!), Back-up sensors, double clutch gearbox, etc... $70-$80K. I just shake my head... nice motor though!
A Mini Cooper S is fun. It's heavier than our 1100 kg target, but closer. FWD is a handicap. It's a good car for my daughter.
I am looking forward to the 4C. I'm not excited by it's looks, but the concept is right. It's small, light and fast. It's not retro. Hopefully, there will be other paint options besides that flat red... otherwise, every kid with french fries will leave finger prints!
We in the USA have been waiting along time for Alfa Romeo's return. Who would have thought we would have FIAT back? I'm hoping that both FIAT and Alfa Romeo will succeed.
In the "Three Men and a Giulia" thread, the Dutch visitors decry the emphasis on Exotics at the Concorso Italiano in Monterey this year. They forget that there are no other Italian cars sold here! Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini and the 8C Competitione. What do they expect? When most people think about Italian cars, this is all they know. They do not know what a Giulia Super is. But that is what makes owning a Giulia Super cool... only enthusiasts know that it is special. It is great to see the FIAT 500 here. Hopefully, we will see an expanded FIAT line, not just a boutique car.
What Alfas we see has yet to be determined.
When you are done building your GTV, you will need to find some good roads. There are none in South Florida! Maybe you can drive it to Asheville for a vacation next summer. The roads here are amazing.
~Chris
Miguel-
Well, I suppose you could order an M3 with a cloth interior and no options. The ones at my local dealer all have leather, heated seats, metallic paint, moonroofs, navigation, upgraded sound system, USB port ($400!!!), Back-up sensors, double clutch gearbox, etc... $70-$80K. I just shake my head... nice motor though!
A Mini Cooper S is fun. It's heavier than our 1100 kg target, but closer. FWD is a handicap. It's a good car for my daughter.
I am looking forward to the 4C. I'm not excited by it's looks, but the concept is right. It's small, light and fast. It's not retro.
Hopefully, there will be other paint options besides that flat red... otherwise, every kid with french fries will leave finger prints!We in the USA have been waiting along time for Alfa Romeo's return. Who would have thought we would have FIAT back? I'm hoping that both FIAT and Alfa Romeo will succeed.
In the "Three Men and a Giulia" thread, the Dutch visitors decry the emphasis on Exotics at the Concorso Italiano in Monterey this year. They forget that there are no other Italian cars sold here! Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini and the 8C Competitione. What do they expect? When most people think about Italian cars, this is all they know. They do not know what a Giulia Super is. But that is what makes owning a Giulia Super cool... only enthusiasts know that it is special. It is great to see the FIAT 500 here. Hopefully, we will see an expanded FIAT line, not just a boutique car.
What Alfas we see has yet to be determined.
When you are done building your GTV, you will need to find some good roads. There are none in South Florida! Maybe you can drive it to Asheville for a vacation next summer. The roads here are amazing.
~Chris
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