[Charleston]

I've been building myself a replica 1930's AR racer for the last 4 years. Always wanted one, could not afford or risk driving a real one, not a fan of the Pur Sang version of some reason. It's got a 1937/8 2300 6C AR Pescara engine with a blower added by Auto Restorations, Jim Stokes 8C gearbox, period 8C diff, correct 8C Monza reproduction spring steel chassis from Designcast, front end live axle similar. Bosch period electricals and Jaeger period instruments. A bunch of small parts are also period, took ages to find them all.

Now here is the question. It's undeniably a replica but a pretty good one at that with all AR parts or copy parts. I need to add chassis numbers, an engine number (all but two digits are missing) and a description that's honest. I'd appreciate any suggestions from our educated audience?

Photo's of the build can be found on http://www.pinterest.com/luxsimplified/vintage-racing-alfa-romeo-monza-recreation/

Look forward to your or any feedback.

 

[iicarJohn]

ID for an 8C Monza based on a 6C2300 engine

You have already gone a good way towards describing your project honestly. It all looks good and it is nice to see someone pursuing a dream with passionate tenacity.

My suggestion would be that the original engine number be used as the identity for both the engine and the chassis, particularly if it is a 6C2300B engine. Perhaps with the prefix "8C" as window dressing for the casually uninformed and to remove potential confusions for those who know something about 8C cars? This would make for a "matching numbers" car that would not be confused numerically with an Alfa Romeo built 8C. And, because of the "8C" configuration, the car would also not be easily confused with an original 6C2300 despite the numbering following the "8C" prefix.

It seems you do not know the engine number? Have you had any forensic testing to see if the number can be revealed on the number pad, even if only a portion of it?

May we see a photo of the two digits you referred to in your description? Any other details from the block itself and the cylinder head? Any known history about the source and earlier history of the engine? You describe it as "1935". I am not doubting you but perhaps there is a clue in the answer to, "Why do you describe it as 1935?".

Best of luck!

John

 

[Charleston]

Additional information

John - thanks for the feedback and I'm liking this idea of yours.

I bought the engine in the Czech Republic of Pre War Car.com. Here is a picture and another of what is left of the original engine number. I was told it was a 1935 - 38 Pescara engine. I'm not an expert here so just chose one of the dates as the first that they made that model. I can't see easily how to load photo's up on the site (dumb user error?) If you have an email I'll send then directly.

/Users/chrisleigh-jones/Desktop/Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 - Pescara -number of engine block.jpg/Users/chrisleigh-jones/Desktop/Alfa Romeo 6C 2300 - Pescara - parcel3.jpg

 

[iicarJohn]

Sending PM

PM on its way shortly.

Photos are attached by clicking on the "Manage Attachments" box below the message window.

 

[Charleston]

Additional Information

Here are the photo's, hopefully this works.

 

[Charleston]

John - your Earthlink server is blocking my email for some reason. Photo's are loaded on this site now however.

Best

 

[iicarJohn]

Engine number in part ...

Thank you for this photo.

The engine number appears to have been "P 823__3".

P does indeed indicate "Pescara" ... if the stampings can be determined to be original. I suspect that a police forensics expert who is capable of raising numbers from guns that have had their numbers removed might very well raise some hints about the two missing digits?

At the moment. it seems most statistically "probable" that the engine dates from 1937 or 1938 but 1935 and 1936 remain possible. I will be able to generate a small listing of engines that it is not and a few that it is unlikely to be. Quite a number of possibilities will remain.

Original internal parts are sometimes dated with very, very tiny markings by the original machinists and engine builders. The dates that might be revealed by careful inspection with a magnifying glass may allow some additional limitations to our possible number range for the engine.

I'll look some more into possibilities but the best clues may still remain in the molecules of the metal of the engine itself.

Best of luck,

John

 

[iicarJohn]

Light play

Before getting into forensic studies, I've found that photos taken with an independent light source (no flash) held at various angles to the numbered area can sometimes reveal patterns that are not easily seen by the eye and with lighting that is often a bit too direct. If we can identify even one of the two missing digits, the remaining possibilities will be reduced greatly. And then, forensic testing can be directed to the one remaining digit.

 

[AlfistiSA]

Hi John & Charleston

Moonlight has worked for me before, the light is much softer then sunlight and at a shallow angle and generally reveals shadows.......of course moving a motor around in the moonlight isn't all that easy

Aye
Greig

 

[iicarJohn]

Moonlight

Hi John & Charleston

Moonlight has worked for me before, the light is much softer then sunlight and at a shallow angle and generally reveals shadows.......of course moving a motor around in the moonlight isn't all that easy

Aye
Greig

You folks from the Southern Hemisphere are so romantic!

 

[tubut]

I would also suggest using a polarizing filter over the light source and a second polarizing filter at a different angle to view to reveal the surviving stress patterns in the metal (from the numbers). These filters can be inexpensive (for example, see here -- 17" wide @ $7.50 per linear foot).

With respect to the chassis and engine numbers, like John, I would suggest use the existing engine number to the degree it can be reconstructed -- if no clues for the missing spaces can be found, I would punch a lower-case "xx" into their place , e.g. "P 823xx3". For the chassis number, I'd consider the same number but substitute the leading "AR" with your initials. This way, there would never be any confusion with a car that was born in the Alfa factory -- and it would carry your name into the future.

 

[Charleston]

Quick update. At the suggestion of John de Boer I asked Auto Restorations to look for any internal numbers as the engine is stripped for rebuild. The Engine number may be "P 823963" but what is clear is "x 8x3xx3" the "P" is a reasonable guess os lets stick with "P 8239x3".

The crankshaft is stamped "823903 P" which seems remarkably close to what the engine number may have been. 823903 is on the production schedule but not yet traced so its 'open' as it were. I'm waiting for John's more considered reply.

 

[PSk]

BTW: Bugatti and Alfa Romeo did not follow Millers lead but Ernest Henry who is the father of the twin overhead cam 4 valve engine which he first designed while at Peugeot in 1912. Twin overhead cam though and 4 valves per cylinder was not new but the first time together.

It is interesting to note that Miller worked on Burman's 1913 Peugeot ... before he built his own engines.
Pete

 

[Charleston]

Hmm - I think I'll consider myself corrected! Next time a sleepless night arrives I'll have a look into that and change the entry. Thanks.

 

[iicarJohn]

Engine "823963" should be a "MM" engine

Hello Charleston,

I sent an email yesterday indicating that an engine was offered 2007 in Holland that was described as being "perhaps 823963". From the photos gathered at that time, I am thinking you now have that engine. But I cannot be certain as to the actual number.

Thank you for the crankshaft number. This is a good clue but we will need some crank numbers from additional "Pescara" engines in the numerical vicinity before we can make any tentative statements. In the earlier 6C series cars, the original crankshaft was numbered to match a crankcase number ... which differed from the engine number. That practice may well have changed with the 6C2300B.

I have looked again at some "vague" data that I am now putting into better order as a result. Engine 823963 was original to a 6C2300B MM numbered 815043. That car is not known today but the engine number was reported by a Milano PRA document purchased many years ago by a friend. This means that engine 823963 should have had an "MM" prefix rather than a "P" prefix. Since the "P" is barely discernible in your photo ... I am going to suggest that the "P823903" numbering seems "most likely" at this moment even though the fourth and fifth digits remain less than certain. Engine 823903 would have been fitted originally to a chassis in the number range of [813890 - 814000] and most likely in the bottom half of that range. If I had to guess, I'd say the bottom twenty?

John

 

[2valvehead]

Need a description for a Monza

Charleston ...... good advice you're getting on the BB but as you know about Jim Stokes you may care to ask him what his suggestions might be. He's produced some amazing 2.9A 'Toads' and I'm assuming they have a numbering sequence based on something. David Cooke built a tasty 6C1750 Monza lookalike that used it's engine number for i/d (I think). If you're going to register it for the road; you may find that your registration authority have their own ideas about numbering.