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Discussion Starter #9
Kroehl ALMOST got it. It's a FIAT 1100 Stanguellini 1947 (FIAT 508C motor with Stanguellini speed equipment), with coachwork by Ala d'Oro of Bologna Italy. The cahssis is basically stock FIAT 508C. The car today is in Japan, and I want it!!!!
 

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Some weeks ago I had the pleasure to visit the Stanguellini museum in Modena:)



My favorite Stanguellini photo:



Btw, their site is simply great!

Stanguellini.it


Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Some weeks ago I had the pleasure to visit the Stanguellini museum in Modena:)



My favorite Stanguellini photo:



Btw, their site is simply great!

Stanguellini.it


Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:

Carlo:
Thanks for the photo of the car in the Stanguellini museum.
There were actually 4 cars built with that stunning art deco coachwork by Ala d'Oro of Bologna. All are Fiat 508C based. One of the other spiders is in Japan. A car with a removable hardtop which is silver with a blue top has been in a number of MM retros. The car with the hardtop was #100 in the 1947MM. I'll take any of the 3 of the 4 built that are left. :)

No idea where the other car is, or if even still exists...


Link to a photo of a miniature of the car with the removable hardtop:

http://www.grandprixmodels.co.uk/shop/jpgsrc/HIS031.jpg
 

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It's the original Fabio Luigi Rapi's Fiat 8V. I think that this version must be the Lurani-Mahe's car of the 1953 Le Mans.
 

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Rumour has it that Jean Todt is commissioning new blocks for the 8V that will forever sort that engine's Achilles Heel ... instead of 3 main bearings, it will have 5. Price is thought to be around 75,000 Euros per block! I wonder if the Scuderia's own foundry is doing the work .......

Now all I have to do is find a 8V or Siata ... *rolleyes*
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Rumour has it that Jean Todt is commissioning new blocks for the 8V that will forever sort that engine's Achilles Heel ... instead of 3 main bearings, it will have 5. Price is thought to be around 75,000 Euros per block! I wonder if the Scuderia's own foundry is doing the work .......

Now all I have to do is find a 8V or Siata ... *rolleyes*

Where did you hear/see that?

75,000 Euros isn't all that much today, as a restored Zagato bodied coupe is worth around $700,000!!!

"Lesser" 8Vs and Siata 208 spiders and coupes are approaching $500,000!

It also must be remembered that the 8V is a PUSHROD 2 liter V8, and 130 hp isn't bad for a two liter 1952.....more than the Alfa 1900s!

With a 5 main bearing bottom end, modern rods, a better cam, higher compression, etc...add 2000 RPM, and you will have output at 160+ Hp @ 7500 Rpm!!
 

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Ala d'Oro and Fiat 8V

There is serious doubt (in Stanguellini "historian" circles) as to whether it really was Ala d'Oro who did the bodies that were discussed earlier on this thread. I am quite certain that some of the "Ala d'Oro" bodies that are known today were not made even in period, much less by Ala d'Oro. But then, that's also true of some "Zagato" and "Pinin Farina" and "Touring" bodies that exist today. I haven't double-checked for the purpose of this note, but I believe some reference is made to the "Ala d'Oro" doubts in the Orsini/Zagari Stanguellini "Big/Little" book, at least in the Italian version. Haven't checked the English-language version to see if it made it through the translating process.

As to the Fiat 8V engine's shortcomings, there are certainly many things that could have been improved designwise. Some of them were undoubtedly known when the project was being developed. That's part of the problem with building a "technical businesscard" that was not intended to be developed into a mass-marketable product that would pay for itself. Not much inspiration to get it all right! However, the principal problem with the engine's longevity (under racing use and in day-to-day use as well) was in the oiling rather than rev limitations given by the three-main bearings. One can also point to the large lobes on the cam as giving relatively high wiping speeds that might require more oil rather than less. Fiat's original "fix" was to plug the oil supply hole to the center main bearing so that enough oil (barely) would make it to the top of the engine for the valve gear and cam. That meant that the oil getting to the center main bearing (and the centrally located rod journals) had to travel through the crankshaft. Guess which journals started to starve of oil when the revs rose? A speed secret in Italy was to drill the plug in the center main out to a certain size .... but that really shifts the oiling problem elsewhere in the engine. Enlarging the oil pump in its original configuration places too much load on the drive gear that is shared by the ignition distributor. When that gear starts to wear, the ignition timing starts to drift. As with many things in life, one thing leads to another. Or, "If the fix was simple, it would already be fixed!"

There have been rumors of five-main Fiat 8V engines for more than 20 years. Haven't seen any actually show up on the scene, but if they have been out there running surreptitiously, then I would say that there should have been other "improvements" contemplated (or incorporated?) as well. If so, the proof should have been a truly dominating Fiat 8V or Siata 208S in vintage racing events because the rest of the car itself is a pretty great platform. For its time. There is always some improvement to be had, however, if one is intent enough. And pretty soon, there is the risk that the car is not a "Fiat" or "Siata" any longer.

Regardless of three mains or five, one should spend a lot less than 75,000 Euros (roughly U.S. $110k today?) to engineer and build a real oil pump that is driven directly off the crankshaft. Since a number of people are making cranks these days, it should not be terribly difficult to engineer and build one that is capable of driving an oil pump differently. Fiat devised their own "improved" oil pump system in 1954 and some engines have that feature as a retrofit, but it was really "too little and too late".

As far as power output, these engines can be made to put out well over 140HP even using the two-barrel carbs. I won't say how much more because I don't think the limit has been reached and I don't know how long the engine I drove briefly will last. So far, the power has come at some expense of driving flexibility and ease. Very exciting, however. Good for some great grins!
 

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Can an OSCA be considered an eceterini? hmm, thy might have been too big/well-known?

Oh, Dr. E., did you receive my PM with A.C.'s contact info?
 
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