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Discussion Starter · #821 · (Edited)
Murray,

I'm sure you already know this, but you should run an oil thermostat too. This will mean that the oil cooler will only be used when the oil is too hot and thus you will not over cool your oil. The last thing you want is oil that will not flow ...

Same principle as the water thermostat. Now for a dedicated track car, maybe you don't need this but it makes sizing the oil cooler dead easy ... just make it too big ;), the thermostat will look after the oil temp. I used to run one on my last track car ... never had any problems.
Pete
Hi Pete,

Yep a thermostat would be a must for my car.

At least until I get an oil cooler the new oil pressure gauge should help tell me when the oil is getting hot.
........................................................................................................

On the oil pressure gauge project I ordered the pod from JC Whitney yesterday for $13.99. I'm planning on putting the pod outside of the center consol tuck down where the bottom consol meets the center consol on the passenger side.

Equus Gauge Housing for All 2" Gauges : JC Whitney: Auto Parts & Accessories

The gauge I picked up off of Ebay for $12.11. It's a vintage looking gauge that doesn't fit the look of the S-4 Spider's interior but what would? I'm looking at this as temporary. The long term plan is a high quiality 3 gauge pod where the radio is having a oil temp, oil pressure and A/F gauges.

I never listen to the radio in that car and I couldn't hear it if I wanted to.:D:D If I ever sell the car it would be easy to pull the 3 gauge pod and put the radio back in.

eBay Motors: AUTOMETER STREET ROD BLACK OIL PRESSURE GAUGE #1727 (item 330302042464 end time Jan-26-09 17:55:23 PST)

That's the cheap end of the deal the darn plumbing and fittings are going to be a touch over $100. The price to keep the mean nothing stock gauge functioning I guess.

I ended up going to pre-assembled 3AN braided teflon hoses to save the hassle of assembling the ss braided hose and fittings.

Pegasus - Pre-Assembled Size 3 Braided Teflon Racing Hoses

Hardware list to remote mount 2 oil pressure senders :[/

At Block:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79...................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- Part # 3265-16 (10 x 1.0 mm) male threads on one end and a 3AN male (3/8-24 thread).............7.99
Pegasus - Male 10 x 1.0mm Metric Convex Seat to 3AN, Steel

Tee:
1- Part # 3229-03 STL Steel bulkhead branch tee 3AN-3AN-3 @ 20.99........................................20.99
Pegasus - AN834 Bulkhead Branch Tee, AN (All Equal Size, All Male)

1- Nylon cable support clamp..................................................................................................20
Pegasus -Light-Duty Cable Support Clamps (Nylon)

Stock Sender:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79...................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- part # 3265-30 Female 10 x 1.0 mm metric convex seat to 3AN male, steel @ 4.99......................4.99
Pegasus - Female 10 x 1.0mm Metric Convex Seat to 3AN Male, Steel

Autometer Sender:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79.....................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- Part # 3280 NPT 1/8" Female aluminum pipe coupler @ 4.49.....................................................4.49
Pegasus - Female Pipe Coupler - Aluminum (AN910)

1- Part #3253-02-03S 1/8" NPT male - 3AN male steel 90' elbow @ 7.49........................................7.49
Pegasus - AN822 Male NPT Pipe to Male AN 90' Elbow

Pre-Assembled Size 3AN Braided Teflon Racing Hoses:
1-Part # 3-12-S-S 12" Size 3 TFE Hose, straight swivel both ends @ 13.99...................................13.99
2- Part # 3-12-S-90 12" Size 3 TFE Hose, straight swivel to 90 degree swivel @ 20.99....................41.98
Pegasus - Pre-Assembled Size 3 Braided Teflon Racing Hoses

Hardware Cost $104.49
Shipping 7.78
Total Hardware Cost $112.47
 

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Enrique, while it is true that the water heats up more quickly than the oil. It is still possible to run very high oil temps with normal to low water temps. So you can't just rely on your water temp gauge. Even with a good sized oil cooler, my race car runs oil temps of 240-250 degrees, even on days when the water temp never exceeds 190. Along with oil pressure, oil temp can be a good early indicator of problems.

Erik
Thanks for the clarification, Erik... I had an oil cooler and thermostat installed when my '84 Spider went for its first oil change... Perhaps it's time to add an oil temp gauge...

Best regards,
 

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you can get a really nice oil cooler of a newer saab..84-90. check those out. i am getting one next weekend at pick and pull, but i am pretty shure that you must run at least 1/2" id lines.
 

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...but you should run an oil thermostat too....
Are these devices really reliable without adding too much restriction to the oil flow? The long hoses for the cooler plus remote filter already add some flow restriction, and the Alfa's oil pump is not the most powerful thing around. I know of a few engines (including one of mine!) that burned and spun bearings because of oil flow problems. ( The added drilling for intermediate bearing oil galleries helped a lot.)

Robert
 

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Are these devices really reliable without adding too much restriction to the oil flow? The long hoses for the cooler plus remote filter already add some flow restriction, and the Alfa's oil pump is not the most powerful thing around. I know of a few engines (including one of mine!) that burned and spun bearings because of oil flow problems. ( The added drilling for intermediate bearing oil galleries helped a lot.)

Robert
I never had any problems, but I was running an external dry sump oil pump admittedly.

Revving an engine with too colder oil will stress the poor oil pump out big time, and that is what you could end up with with a road engine running a cooler.
Pete
 

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they make 'thurmostates' for oil cooler, they go inline , between the bock and the cooler.
 

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Are these devices really reliable without adding too much restriction to the oil flow? The long hoses for the cooler plus remote filter already add some flow restriction, and the Alfa's oil pump is not the most powerful thing around. Robert
Robert, I used to run a thermostat on my oil cooler lines. It didn't seem to be restrictive and I never had any problems. On the other hand, it didn't really seem to bring the oil temps up any faster! So I left it out the last time I did the plumbing.

But this is another good reason to consider an oil/water heat exchanger. When you use the water to cool the oil, you don't need a thermostat. In fact, the water will help bring the oil up to temp faster. Plus, you don't have to put it in a location with airflow.

Erik
 

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sorry about the spelling:):)
 

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Discussion Starter · #829 · (Edited)
Wiring is done

sorry about the spelling:):)
No need to say sorry for bad spelling on this thread..........I think I'm the worst speller on the BB.

........................................................................................................
Made some progress on the new oil pressure gauge.

Got the wiring done (blew out my cabin light rheostat in the process :mad:) but the senders are mounted, all the wires are run for the new gauge and the plumbing fittings and hose was ordered this afternoon.

The gauge came in yesterday and the pod and plumbing hardware should be in by the end of this week or beginning of next week.

The senders are just mounted temporary. I will need to remove them to hook up the plumbing then I can attach them straight and tight. I gounded the senders with a wire back to coolant mounting bracket (a sure grounding point).

You can see a photo copy of the pod I'm using in the picture with the gauge. It will fit right next to the center consol down by the bottom consol (see where the wires are coming out next to the consol).

If your sitting in the passenger seat your leg will not hit the pod........it's a space that's open while sitting. When I'm driving I will be able to tilt the pod towards me for better viewing.

Here are some pictures of the progress.
 

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Discussion Starter · #830 · (Edited)
Plumbing is done

The plumbing came in today and I got it all hooked up.

The fittings fit good other then the adaptor to the stock sender. That one treaded on well but the sender threads seemed to bottom out in the adaptor but I used thread seal on it and got it tighten down good.

Also the crush washers didn't work on the 2 senders. The threads were just too long on the senders for the adaptors they threaded into but I got them all on tight with tread sealer. I also fasten a ground wire to the senders and tested them to make sure they were grounded.

The fitting to the block kinda scared me in that I was afraid to strip the treads in the block. But I got it as tight as I could with a 3 finger pull on the wrench.

At the tee I used one of the harness straps to hold the tee in place. The harness fits nicely in the recess next to the stock sender (right side).

I'll have to keep an eye on all the fittings for a while for oil leaks and hopefully they will hold the pressure too. The thread sealer has a full cure time of 72 hours so I should wait that long before I start her up and check for leaks........Right?............ It's suppose to get up in the 50's tomorrow it would be a great day to take it out................. but I better play it safe.

The nice thing about the thread sealer is you can make adjustments up to 24 hours without effecting the seal.

Pegasus - Permatex (or Loctite) Pipe Sealant with Teflon, 50 ml Tube

Here is the parts list I ordered. Who would have thought it would total up to be so much. :eek:

I did priced out the fittings and adaptors else where and I found the Pegasus had the better price on most of the stuff and they had it all. They also got the parts to me 2 days after I ordered them. I highly recommend them.

Plumbing fittings and hose order from Pegasus:

At Block:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79......................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- Part # 3265-16 (10 x 1.0 mm) male threads on one end and a 3AN male (3/8-24 thread).............7.99
Pegasus - Male 10 x 1.0mm Metric Convex Seat to 3AN, Steel

Tee:
1- Part # 3229-03 STL Steel bulkhead branch tee 3AN-3AN-3 ,male @ 20.99...............................20.99
Pegasus - AN834 Bulkhead Branch Tee, AN (All Equal Size, All Male)

1- Part # 3284-03 3AN male to female swivel 90 elbow, (steel) @ 11.99...................................... 11.99
Pegasus - AN Male to Female Swivel 90' Elbow

Stock Sender:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79.......................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- part # 3265-30 Female 10 x 1.0 mm metric convex seat to 3AN male, steel @ 4.99...................4.99
Pegasus - Female 10 x 1.0mm Metric Convex Seat to 3AN Male, Steel

Autometer Sender:
1-Part # 3241-3/8 Soft copper washer 3/8" (or 10mm) ID @ .79........................................................79
Pegasus - Soft Copper Crush Washer

1- Part # 3254-02-03S female 1/8 NPT to male 3AN adapter @ 7.99.....................................7.99
Pegasus - Female NPT Pipe to Male AN Adapter

Pre-assembled Braided Stainless Teflon Hoses:
1- Part # 3-12-S-S 12" Size 3 TFE Hose, straight swivel both ends @ 13.99...................................13.99
1- Part # 3-12-S-90 12" Size 3 TFE Hose, straight swivel to 90 degree swivel @ 20.99.....................20.99
1- Part # 3-18-S-90 18" Size 3 TFE Hose, straight swivel to 90 degree swivel @ 22.49.....................22.49
Pegasus - Pre-Assembled Size 3 Braided Teflon Racing Hoses

1- Part # 3374 Pipe sealant @ 14.89............................................................................. 14.89
Pegasus - Permatex (or Loctite) Pipe Sealant with Teflon, 50 ml Tube


Hardware Cost $128.68
Shipping 5.55
Total Hardware Cost $134.23
 

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Discussion Starter · #831 · (Edited)
Got the Pod and gauge Installed..............I'm done!

The gauge pod came in today so I got busy and mounted it.

Prior to mounding it I needed something to mount it too. So I took a strap of aluminum and slip it behind the washer of the bolt that fastens the center consol to it's lower mounting bracket. Then I tighten the bolt up which held the strap solid. This piece is directly behind the side carpet panel tuck up in the corner.

The gauge mounting bracket came with 2 mounting screws but I took a 8mm bolt and ran it through the back side of the strap through the plastic/carpet panel and the bracket at the front hole and tighten it down. On the other hole I used the self tapping screw that came with the mount and screwed it through a the strap.

The wires were just long enough to keep them directly under the gauge pod which help keep them out of sight. The only problem was the wire joints were on the outside of the carpet panel.:mad: So I took a black plastic strap cap and a glue gun and glued the cap to the wire junction. :eek: But it looks good...........I think. :)

The gauge is low enough that it is out of the way for any one one sitting in the passenger seat too.

Over all the gauge really doesn't fit the interior of a S-4 Spider but IMO was needed to keep an eye on the oil pressure on and off the track. It will be interesting to see the difference between the stock gauge and the Autometer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #832 · (Edited)
Test Drive to check out the new oil gauge

The temp got over 60F today and with all the snow gone I decided to take the Spider out for a test drive and check how the new oil gauge work.

In general the stock gauge was not far off other then at the start up. After warmed up it showed no movement and read a little low compared to the new gauge. The new gauge was responsive in showing increase pressure as the throttle was put down. The stock gauge had close to zero movement to it when the peddle was pushed down.

There was not any leaks either.......................now I can say............the job is done. :)

Here is the video. Sorry for the sound going to one channel on the drive. I must have had a loose connection on one of the helmet cam connections

 

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Discussion Starter · #833 · (Edited)
Power Steering Rack Leak

My power steering box leak is getting to the point I need to start thinking about fixing it. I tried stop leak last year (went through a 12 oz bottle) and it did slow the leak but now it's worst then ever before.

Got a couple of questions:

1. I ended up finding a used power steering box but I'm not sure if I should try to find someone to rebuild it or just put it on as is??? The salvage rack shows no signs of leakage.

2. Does anyone know if these things can be rebuilt with any sucess?

3. Is switching the ps box out something that I could do? Looks rather simple other then a bunch of stuff that needs to removed to get it out but the steering is not something I want to screw up. My main concerns are the attachment point at the U-Joint at the firewall, torqueing the Pitman nut down (103 lbs) and getting the ball joints seperated and back together.

I thought that If I couldn't get the Pitman off I could pull the ball joints instead............not sure which way would be the best way to do it?


I did get a quote of 8 to 10 hrs @ $85 from the shop that has work on the car before.

Thinking about putting 2 table spoons of brake fluid in my leaking ps box to really swell up the seals for a last ditch effort? I would like to get though this season before switching them out.

Here's a couple of pic's.

The puddle in the picture is after 24 hrs of dripping.:eek:

The 3 other pictures are the salvage box as it came to me and my clean up on it so far. I'm planning on re-painting it before it goes in.
 

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I would much rather reseal a steer gear before I installed it rather than later-- food for thought.
 

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Murray, I will admit to having never worked on an Alfa with power steering. So my advice may be worth what you paid for it! Where is the leak? On the non-power boxes, it it typically from the lower seal on the main shaft, just behind where the pitman arm mounts. On the non-power systems, you can replace the seal from under the car without removing the box.

Erik
 

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Discussion Starter · #836 ·
I would much rather reseal a steer gear before I installed it rather than later-- food for thought.
Didn't know there was a replacement seal for the box?

On the non-power boxes, it it typically from the lower seal on the main shaft, just behind where the pitman arm mounts. On the non-power systems, you can replace the seal from under the car without removing the box.

Erik
Yep, that's were it's leaking from you can see the stream of fluid run down the top of the pitman arm.

Wonder if the seal is the same as the non-power box's?
 

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Discussion Starter · #837 ·
Centerline and IAP doesn't carry replacement seals for either power or non-power steering box's.

Any idea where to find them?
 

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Centerline and IAP doesn't carry replacement seals for either power or non-power steering box's.

Any idea where to find them?
Murray, oil seals are sold by dimension. You can probably get that dimension from the seal on your replacement box. It is usually imprinted on the outside face of the seal. There should be 3 numbers, one for OD, one for ID and one for thickness (all in millimeters). A local bearing supply house can order you the seal for a reasonable cost.

I can't think of any reason you would have to remove the box to replace the seal. First, make sure you can see the marks that line up the pitman arm on the box. If you can't, make some new marks before you disassemble. The pitman arm nut is probably 32mm. A standard cheap pitman arm puller will work fine on an Alfa box. The most difficult part of the job will be removing the seal with the shaft still in place. The good thing is that you can destroy it in the process, since it is getting replaced anyway. Remember, when it comes out, all the remaining oil will be in your face. So be prepared! You will need to find a suitable driver to push the new seal into place. But you are creative, so that shouldn't be that tough.

Again, I haven't done this job on a power steering box, but I can't imagine why it would be any different. If it is, please, someone jump in and let Murray know!

Erik
 

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Discussion Starter · #839 · (Edited)
I can't think of any reason you would have to remove the box to replace the seal.

The most difficult part of the job will be removing the seal with the shaft still in place. The good thing is that you can destroy it in the process, since it is getting replaced anyway.

You will need to find a suitable driver to push the new seal into place. But you are creative, so that shouldn't be that tough.

Erik
Sounds like I would screw it up some how? :eek: But I'll take a look at the used ps box spindle where it goes into the box to see what I have.

I got under my Spider and took a long look at the area around the ps box and it does look like I have enough room to get leverage to get the pitman off and attempt a lower seal replacement if the exhaust down pipes where removed but when I was under there I saw that my ps rack was weeping a little from the front of the box too. I'm thinking that existing ps rack needs to come out.

Maybe I could find a power steering box reconditioning service that would be intersted in replacing the seals on the ps rack that's on my Spider now (when it's out) and use it as a spare?

On the used box, looking at the spindle where it goes into the box the area shows no sign of leakage and the grease packing actually looks fresh and the front seal is dry too.

I'm leaning on calling the used rack good and install it as is? The paint is dry now so after I get 2 new bolts to seal the top I can turn it up side down and look closer at that area.

Here is a couple of picks.

The first one is the newly painted box. The second is a close up of it under the boot of the spindle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #840 · (Edited)
Found a good artical on installing a new bottom seal to a power steering rack.

steeringbox

I also found out that I am missing a bolt on my steering box that's installed in my Spider. The shop that installed the chassis stiffener back in 2003 must have figured that 3 bolts out of 4 was good enough.:eek:

The bolt that is missing is the bottom back bolt (refer to picture), I think the chassis stiffener bracket hole didn't line up with it so intead of enlarging the hole or re-adjusting the chassis stiffner they just left the bolt out?
 

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