Moretti 750 Gran Sport
21 - 40 of 98 Posts
Joined
·
3,964 Posts
It's not that surprising. For whatever reason, at least in the '50s and '60s, Italian high-performance cars were often RHD, even though Italy drove on the right. Of the six series of the Lancia Aurelia GT, only the last three series were offered in either LHD or RHD--the S1, S2 & S3 were RHD only.
moretti 750GSB
I found some pics of the RHD car that was for sale recently. It has slightly inset front indicator lights as did the factory competizione RHD model in some of the Ludvigsen archive factory photos. It also has unusual taillights below the character line rather than the normal inset ones above. There is another RHD car with normally positioned markers that ran in the 54 Mille. Another tidbit or two. the original US report on these cars talks about them not being available with wire wheels but at least three of these used them in period. The von dutch egg crate grille on the Ludvigsen/Auriana car is seen on another car in period at the MM. I included a couple of pics including two of the ex DeBoer/Bucciarelli/Milo/Fantasy Junction car which I believe has numerous mods to make it more reliable for regular use such as Tilton clutch etc.
I found some pics of the RHD car that was for sale recently. It has slightly inset front indicator lights as did the factory competizione RHD model in some of the Ludvigsen archive factory photos. It also has unusual taillights below the character line rather than the normal inset ones above. There is another RHD car with normally positioned markers that ran in the 54 Mille. Another tidbit or two. the original US report on these cars talks about them not being available with wire wheels but at least three of these used them in period. The von dutch egg crate grille on the Ludvigsen/Auriana car is seen on another car in period at the MM. I included a couple of pics including two of the ex DeBoer/Bucciarelli/Milo/Fantasy Junction car which I believe has numerous mods to make it more reliable for regular use such as Tilton clutch etc.
Attachments
![Moretti GS 001A[1] (2).jpg](/d2/attachments/68/68178-e0e49d8f6760039bfdd841d671b96385.jpg)
![54 Moretti GS 6[1]. (2).JPG](/d2/attachments/68/68240-dec9a4990041ee1f046c5ba1bb490cf5.jpg)
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
Moretti ... Did someone say Moretti?
Guess I'll have to prepare some information for this thread. As an introduction, please note that there is much confusion about production numbers based in part on Moretti's desire to have the bialbero-engined versions of their production (intermingled with the SOHC cars) accepted into the production GT category of the day. There is one homologation document that I found at Moretti that gives a hint at what they wished for the homologating authorities to believe but which can be shown (based on cars identified thus far) that is not entirely accurate .... or perhaps other games were in play as well?
More to follow.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
1952 Moretti 750 bialbero "berlinetta sport Mille Miglia" N. 823 without original engine.
1953 Moretti 750 bialbero engine N. 1289 (recently sold to owner of 1251s)
1954/55 Moretti 750 bialbero engine N. 1615
Guess I'll have to prepare some information for this thread. As an introduction, please note that there is much confusion about production numbers based in part on Moretti's desire to have the bialbero-engined versions of their production (intermingled with the SOHC cars) accepted into the production GT category of the day. There is one homologation document that I found at Moretti that gives a hint at what they wished for the homologating authorities to believe but which can be shown (based on cars identified thus far) that is not entirely accurate .... or perhaps other games were in play as well?
More to follow.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
1952 Moretti 750 bialbero "berlinetta sport Mille Miglia" N. 823 without original engine.
1953 Moretti 750 bialbero engine N. 1289 (recently sold to owner of 1251s)
1954/55 Moretti 750 bialbero engine N. 1615
Moretti
John, Thanks for checking this thread out .I am looking forward to your input and any help you can provide. I know your and your fathers knowledge on this topic is encyclopedic. I remember seeing a twin cam engine at his house and a red and black coupe, I think it was rhd with a slightly larger body than the Michelotti coupes. It was steel but very lightweight and was not in the 1200 sequence of chassis #. It Looked like one of the Vignale 212 coupes with the very short tails. He also had some other tasty morsels laying around like a Giaur, a white Siata 300bc coupe (maybe the only one) and even I think a Nardi frame. David
John, Thanks for checking this thread out .I am looking forward to your input and any help you can provide. I know your and your fathers knowledge on this topic is encyclopedic. I remember seeing a twin cam engine at his house and a red and black coupe, I think it was rhd with a slightly larger body than the Michelotti coupes. It was steel but very lightweight and was not in the 1200 sequence of chassis #. It Looked like one of the Vignale 212 coupes with the very short tails. He also had some other tasty morsels laying around like a Giaur, a white Siata 300bc coupe (maybe the only one) and even I think a Nardi frame. David
Joined
·
2 Posts
Peter/David
The Mirbach car is the 1297. The 1290 has nearly finished a complete restauration and is the car on the sight by car discoveries. I'm the owner of the car.
Frans Pisters
Joined
·
537 Posts
This Moretti 750 GS is now restored in Holland and for sale at 150000 Euros...
the black and red one above that is.N Hannah
OSCA 1600 GT2
Fiat 1100S Pininfarina
ex. Bizzarrini 5300
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
Moretti 750 bialbero
Here is a listing that highlights a bit about the confusion that is known thus far (to me anyway) of Moretti bialbero production ... with a few other cars thrown in for reference as well. I'm afraid that it is not particularly encylopaedic! But it is a start and I'm sure that there are some folks out there who have details to add to individual car descriptions and histories if not the overall listing.
This "highlights" listing scratches the surface of the detail that has been collected and I am always adding more. For anyone who shares specific information about a car they own or perhaps used to own or know well, more detail awaits. As always, I exchange information for information.
As an example, I am not yet aware of any documentation that supports the claim, albeit of dubious "value", of any one car being the August, 1954 Road and Track magazine cover car. If a car has that documentation available (rather than mere claims), I would like to see it. Many car owners have made the claim, albeit with some doubt often expressed. I suspect that the documentation would allow me to move some of the unidentified history in the attached listing under a specific chassis number.
I am quite certain that at least ten cars were built in the so-called "berlinetta Gran Sport" configuration. I suspect that there were some more, but probably not as many as twenty.
Note: It would seem that my file's size 103kB exceeded the forum's modest 97kB limit so more editing will be necessary ... I guess I'll remove the "unidentified" section, even if that is the portion that would be most interesting to the car-hunters. If anyone wants the unedited version of this highlights listing, just PM me with your email.
All the best.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
Here is a listing that highlights a bit about the confusion that is known thus far (to me anyway) of Moretti bialbero production ... with a few other cars thrown in for reference as well. I'm afraid that it is not particularly encylopaedic! But it is a start and I'm sure that there are some folks out there who have details to add to individual car descriptions and histories if not the overall listing.
This "highlights" listing scratches the surface of the detail that has been collected and I am always adding more. For anyone who shares specific information about a car they own or perhaps used to own or know well, more detail awaits. As always, I exchange information for information.
As an example, I am not yet aware of any documentation that supports the claim, albeit of dubious "value", of any one car being the August, 1954 Road and Track magazine cover car. If a car has that documentation available (rather than mere claims), I would like to see it. Many car owners have made the claim, albeit with some doubt often expressed. I suspect that the documentation would allow me to move some of the unidentified history in the attached listing under a specific chassis number.
I am quite certain that at least ten cars were built in the so-called "berlinetta Gran Sport" configuration. I suspect that there were some more, but probably not as many as twenty.
Note: It would seem that my file's size 103kB exceeded the forum's modest 97kB limit so more editing will be necessary ... I guess I'll remove the "unidentified" section, even if that is the portion that would be most interesting to the car-hunters. If anyone wants the unedited version of this highlights listing, just PM me with your email.
All the best.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
moretti 750
John, fantastic fascinating information. I wonder if you have anything else on 1292. I do have the chain of ownership from its original owner to the present if you are interested.
As a student I once traveled to Indiana and put a downpayment on a 750Tdm that was owned by Gunderman but never went back and collected it. I think they owned a body shop. It was in terrible shape and probably not salvagable. I believe it wound up in the Norteast maybe Vermont. I also own a 750Tdm II with engine # 3207 that is complete but needs complete restoration. It may be for sale if you know anyone who is interested.
Thanks,
David
John, fantastic fascinating information. I wonder if you have anything else on 1292. I do have the chain of ownership from its original owner to the present if you are interested.
As a student I once traveled to Indiana and put a downpayment on a 750Tdm that was owned by Gunderman but never went back and collected it. I think they owned a body shop. It was in terrible shape and probably not salvagable. I believe it wound up in the Norteast maybe Vermont. I also own a 750Tdm II with engine # 3207 that is complete but needs complete restoration. It may be for sale if you know anyone who is interested.
Thanks,
David
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
I owned #1037, one of 2 Zagato bodied 750 bialbero coupes in the mid 1980s. Lurani found the car, it was restored by Galbiati, but the restoration cost was more than was initially thought, so it went back to Galbiati and then to Rudy Pas. I had money tied up in the restoration for something like 3 years, and as I had to sell it because of the actual cost of the restoration, I basically broke even on my investment...
period photo; car was cream over dark red...
period photo; car was cream over dark red...
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
Moretti 1292s
Hi David,
The earliest ownership information I have for N. 1292s is Henry Grady (of later "Begra" fame) as of about 1956/57 time period. He sold it and it went through a few other owners before he repurchased it 1962 and owned it for quite a long time until Hurricane Hugo damaged a building that fell onto it. When I had correspondence with Henry about the car a number of years ago, both before and after the hurricane, he either could not or would not share earlier history.
There is always some risk in this kind of anecdotal reporting as it has been found that, in a couple of cases, someone thought they were getting their old car back when it was actually another. Those kinds of assumptions can wreak havoc on actual "research" as we can be led astray in a most perplexing manner, particularly when another car comes along that either claims the same history or can document it!
Sometimes anecdotal accounts are the best thing we've got to work with, but photos and official paper (that doesn't always tell the whole truth either!) are generally more reliable.
Henry borrowed a five-main crank from me for a good long time but eventually did return it. I'm not sure if it was before or after selling the car. I'm also not sure what he was trying to learn from the crank. Being a racing-oriented guy, he may have trying to divine how some extra mains could be added to his three-main? Just a guess.
I would be pleased to share a more detailed listing with you, personally, and I would also be pleased to include any additional information you might have. It is your choice as to whether you'd like to have the exchange happen publicly in the forum or privately.
I will generally share more detail in a private listing if we can agree that not all information is appropriate for all eyes. ... Not that there are any tremendously important secrets, but sometimes there are gossipy details ... or contact information ... or snide comments .... or photos of holes in engine blocks .... or phone numbers of bawdy ... (you get the idea?) that might be best left to a limited audience. Not all tire-kickers need know what an owner/enthusiast maybe ought to know? I say that with the full realization that sometimes I am more of a tire-kicker than owner and (partially?) as a result of that, there is often information that is not shared with myself by some owners. That is simply the way it is.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
Hi David,
The earliest ownership information I have for N. 1292s is Henry Grady (of later "Begra" fame) as of about 1956/57 time period. He sold it and it went through a few other owners before he repurchased it 1962 and owned it for quite a long time until Hurricane Hugo damaged a building that fell onto it. When I had correspondence with Henry about the car a number of years ago, both before and after the hurricane, he either could not or would not share earlier history.
There is always some risk in this kind of anecdotal reporting as it has been found that, in a couple of cases, someone thought they were getting their old car back when it was actually another. Those kinds of assumptions can wreak havoc on actual "research" as we can be led astray in a most perplexing manner, particularly when another car comes along that either claims the same history or can document it!
Sometimes anecdotal accounts are the best thing we've got to work with, but photos and official paper (that doesn't always tell the whole truth either!) are generally more reliable.
Henry borrowed a five-main crank from me for a good long time but eventually did return it. I'm not sure if it was before or after selling the car. I'm also not sure what he was trying to learn from the crank. Being a racing-oriented guy, he may have trying to divine how some extra mains could be added to his three-main? Just a guess.
I would be pleased to share a more detailed listing with you, personally, and I would also be pleased to include any additional information you might have. It is your choice as to whether you'd like to have the exchange happen publicly in the forum or privately.
I will generally share more detail in a private listing if we can agree that not all information is appropriate for all eyes. ... Not that there are any tremendously important secrets, but sometimes there are gossipy details ... or contact information ... or snide comments .... or photos of holes in engine blocks .... or phone numbers of bawdy ... (you get the idea?) that might be best left to a limited audience. Not all tire-kickers need know what an owner/enthusiast maybe ought to know? I say that with the full realization that sometimes I am more of a tire-kicker than owner and (partially?) as a result of that, there is often information that is not shared with myself by some owners. That is simply the way it is.
John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
Joined
·
1,707 Posts
Moretti Tour du Monde
David,
My notes indicate that Gunderman has or had Moretti N. 2933, a convertible from which the engine had been stolen at some time. That's not to say he might not have had another at some time. Perhaps you can confirm or deny?
Your TdM, N. 3207, was last reported to me rather vaguely as being in a town in New York. I have the town name but no owner name and will not reveal the town name on the off chance that it might reveal more about you than you would wish to have be known in this forum.
All the best,
John de Boer
David,
My notes indicate that Gunderman has or had Moretti N. 2933, a convertible from which the engine had been stolen at some time. That's not to say he might not have had another at some time. Perhaps you can confirm or deny?
Your TdM, N. 3207, was last reported to me rather vaguely as being in a town in New York. I have the town name but no owner name and will not reveal the town name on the off chance that it might reveal more about you than you would wish to have be known in this forum.
All the best,
John de Boer
Joined
·
132 Posts
Hi Stu-I owned #1037, one of 2 Zagato bodied 750 bialbero coupes in the mid 1980s. Lurani found the car, it was restored by Galbiati, but the restoration cost was more than was initially thought, so it went back to Galbiati and then to Rudy Pas. I had money tied up in the restoration for something like 3 years, and as I had to sell it because of the actual cost of the restoration, I basically broke even on my investment...
period photo; car was cream over dark red...
It's been a long time since we've spoken. I'm looking for a neat '50s fuoriserie car. Do you have any idea where #1037 is today?
Donald Osborne
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
John, The Gunderman car was a Tdm convertible without its engine and was literally sitting with grass and brush growing up through it. It was in terrible shape. My other car came from NY and I believe is the one you mentioned. I would be happy to discuss the provenance of 1292 as I have the chain of ownership I believe back to its importation. I agree because of confidentiality and the possibility of introducing incorrect information into the history that it should be out of the general forum but dont really know which format you would like. I am happy to call you if you like. I will also be in Monterey in August and we could discuss it then, let me know, David
Dr4's 750 Moretti GT
Years ago, maybe 1957, when I was about 20 and foolish, I owned one of these. I traded my Porsche 356 super for it to a person named Jack Ashurst, I think who may have bought it from Mcafee. Sorry, can't remember its serial number. Originally it was silver, but I had it stripped and painted red. I raced it once admittedly before I had much driving time in it. Well, I should say raced it for one day. I blew the engine, mostly because of my inexperience and partly because the gear ratio from 3rd to 4th was so tall that the little aluminum brakes (which were warped by the previous owner) could not get the speed down quick enough to avoid over-revving. The engineering on the rod (babitt-filled) bearings was not that great. It used a pin through a hole in the center of the bearing shell to prevent it from rotating on the crankshaft. That pin could shear off, which is what happened to me.
After a year, when I finally got some parts from Italy (with the help of an Italian neighbor), and some work by local machine shops, I put the engine back together, me and my best friend, my dad. He helped me pull the engine. I had no engine blueprints, no manual, no one who could help, nothing. On the first assembly, I got one of the main bearing holes that routed oil to the overhead cams misaligned. I dissassembled the engine and tried again. Unfortunately, this time I misaligned the rear journal which fed oil to the rear bearing. At this point, I was so discouraged, I packed up the engine and shipped it to someone in Nashville, TN or someplace and replaced the original engine with an 850 cc Ferry modified Renault installed by a guy down in Newport beach, CA. Finally, I sold the car to a man in Seattle, I think. Never met him, just the driver he sent to pick it up. I made another mistake, replacing the original, straight slat grill with a custom egg crate grill made by a shop in LA, but I don't remember the name of the shop.
What I really wanted to let you know is that this car was not particularly well designed or pleasant to drive. The battery was stored just above where a passenger's feet went: not good. The starter was activated by manually pulling a cable that passed through the firewall to an arm on the starter solenoid. The electrical was very cheap and the ignition switch literally crumbed to pieces one day. The tranny was so noisy, whinny and growly that it would drive you insane to listen to it. Lastly that alumiunm body would dent if you even looked cross-eyed at it. The rear window was acrylic (plexiglass plastic) and the tires were narrow like a tractor's and the brake drums were aluminum!
On the plus side, it was pretty cute and the engine had a sound not unlike that of a little Ferrari.
So, before you lose too much sleep dreaming about one of these, I just wanted you to know the reality of owning one. They weren't that great!
Dr4
Years ago, maybe 1957, when I was about 20 and foolish, I owned one of these. I traded my Porsche 356 super for it to a person named Jack Ashurst, I think who may have bought it from Mcafee. Sorry, can't remember its serial number. Originally it was silver, but I had it stripped and painted red. I raced it once admittedly before I had much driving time in it. Well, I should say raced it for one day. I blew the engine, mostly because of my inexperience and partly because the gear ratio from 3rd to 4th was so tall that the little aluminum brakes (which were warped by the previous owner) could not get the speed down quick enough to avoid over-revving. The engineering on the rod (babitt-filled) bearings was not that great. It used a pin through a hole in the center of the bearing shell to prevent it from rotating on the crankshaft. That pin could shear off, which is what happened to me.
After a year, when I finally got some parts from Italy (with the help of an Italian neighbor), and some work by local machine shops, I put the engine back together, me and my best friend, my dad. He helped me pull the engine. I had no engine blueprints, no manual, no one who could help, nothing. On the first assembly, I got one of the main bearing holes that routed oil to the overhead cams misaligned. I dissassembled the engine and tried again. Unfortunately, this time I misaligned the rear journal which fed oil to the rear bearing. At this point, I was so discouraged, I packed up the engine and shipped it to someone in Nashville, TN or someplace and replaced the original engine with an 850 cc Ferry modified Renault installed by a guy down in Newport beach, CA. Finally, I sold the car to a man in Seattle, I think. Never met him, just the driver he sent to pick it up. I made another mistake, replacing the original, straight slat grill with a custom egg crate grill made by a shop in LA, but I don't remember the name of the shop.
What I really wanted to let you know is that this car was not particularly well designed or pleasant to drive. The battery was stored just above where a passenger's feet went: not good. The starter was activated by manually pulling a cable that passed through the firewall to an arm on the starter solenoid. The electrical was very cheap and the ignition switch literally crumbed to pieces one day. The tranny was so noisy, whinny and growly that it would drive you insane to listen to it. Lastly that alumiunm body would dent if you even looked cross-eyed at it. The rear window was acrylic (plexiglass plastic) and the tires were narrow like a tractor's and the brake drums were aluminum!
On the plus side, it was pretty cute and the engine had a sound not unlike that of a little Ferrari.
So, before you lose too much sleep dreaming about one of these, I just wanted you to know the reality of owning one. They weren't that great!
Dr4
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Just found your post...no, Pat's Moretti Sportiva didn't have any real connection to the 750 twin cams built from circa 1950 through circa 1955.
21 - 40 of 98 Posts
Join the discussion
Recommended Reading
-
Flaminia Coupe -the Bugatti-Wagen-
Other Italian CarsFlaminia Coupé -der Bugatti-Wagen- Hi everybody, After one or two comments out of the dark distance, please let me briefly introduce myself in this forum. I would like to participate a bit more actively. As you can see, I focuss on Lancia, especially Flaminia. My cars are GT 3C, Convertibile...- 583
- 95K
-
Tedesco · updated
-
-
-
Delta Integrale HF 16 V 35.700 kms one owner rust free factory paint
Other Italian Carsleather interior, air conditioning, a collector's car in unique condition...I doubt there is a better car presently for sale in the world. The car is now ready. Presently under offer. would require a quick decision. I have uploaded on my personal Smugmug page some 100/150 pictures ( videos...- 0
- 172
-
portello1966 · updated
-
Fiat 850 Coupe
Other Italian CarsI have a '69 Fiat 850 Coupe series 2 that I am looking to sell here in the UK, I'm happy to sell outside the UK- it is LHD which helps this. My question is, what are people's thoughts on Bring a trailer for selling a car outside the US? and in general? I'm selling only to free up space for a new...- 4
- 609
Join now to ask and comment!