Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Montreal owners, how is the transmission on a Montreal, is it a lot smoother to shift between 1st and 2nd than the 66-94 Spider tranny?
Also how does the length\width compare between the Spider transmission and the Montreal transmission?
Last question, what do I have to do to my win me browser to get it to show pictures?
Thank you, Wes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Hi Wesley, Not sure if you are still interested in a reply .... but they are incomparable. I recently purchased a Montreal. I previously owned a 1975 Spider and a 1974 GTV before that. Night and day ..... throw is so much shorter ... Montreal! what an animal! Love it!
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
Hi Wesley, Not sure if you are still interested in a reply .... but they are incomparable. I recently purchased a Montreal. I previously owned a 1975 Spider and a 1974 GTV before that. Night and day ..... throw is so much shorter ... Montreal! what an animal! Love it!
Orange, with orange/black seat covers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Very nice gearbox. Similar to the fiat dino if I remember correctly.
I love the Monty but gee there a ****box to drive. Think bad 105. Much like some of the old Maserati from the 70's.
You want a challenge try changing the cable of the window regulator. It must have taken a team of engineers a month to come up with that design. Count 8 pulleys plus the regulator lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,987 Posts
Hi Wesley, Not sure if you are still interested in a reply .... but they are incomparable. I recently purchased a Montreal. I previously owned a 1975 Spider and a 1974 GTV before that. Night and day ..... throw is so much shorter ... Montreal! what an animal! Love it!
Is that the ZF?
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
Yes, ZF box. Not as nice as the one in my 1999 GTV 2.0TS, but quite nice nonetheless. Less of a concern about 1-2 shifts, but I've got an unbreakable Alfa habit of just taking my time through there.

As for driving....

The car I had, and restored with modifications, had a lowered suspension, stiffer front bar, Billstein shocks, BMW 4-pot front calipers, and Michelin AS Exalto Pilot tires. When I first bought the car the driving experience was, as AP2 said "a s***box to drive". I also rebuilt my suspension with fresh bushings and an adjustable upper front link to play nicely with the lower-stiffer springs.

The driving experience with the mods was, if anything, a tiny bit too exhilarating. Probably Konis instead of Billsteins would have softened the road feel just the right amount, but the handling was superb. And, braking to match the performance. Driving around with two-pot front brakes intended for a 105 car was just a bad idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alfettaparts2

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Used to work on quiet a lot of these, maybe up to 15, which in monty terms is quiet a few. There are always some mods you could do to improve them but without doubt the best one I saw is get rid of the poxy spica fuel injection system and fit a QUALITY after market EFI. It unlocks these engines like you cant believe.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
Used to work on quiet a lot of these, maybe up to 15, which in monty terms is quiet a few. There are always some mods you could do to improve them but without doubt the best one I saw is get rid of the poxy spica fuel injection system and fit a QUALITY after market EFI. It unlocks these engines like you cant believe.

Hmmm. I'm kind of a fan of the Spica system, as a general statement. I had no great trouble getting mine sorted on the Monty, achieving good mileage and good power. Good fuel economy? Well, er, ahem.

I don't doubt a modern EFI could find and release unplumbed aspects of the very nice engine. However, the engine itself has quite a number of compromises. Still, it did OK for me, and was running well on last I read of it.

I'm about to go through my spare engine over the next couple of months and then put it up for sale. No further requirement for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Don't get me wrong, maybe poxy isn't the correct word. After all the spica system, brilliant in its day must be over 50 years old? I'm running out of body parts but I bet my left foot you could stick a set of downdrafts on one and get better overall results than the spica.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
At the end of the day, IC engines are air pumps. More air in, more power.

If the EFI uses the same throttles and cams, then that pretty much determines the maximum airflow. The Spica does a pretty good job matching the fuel to the air, so....

A set of carbs with larger venturis might flow more air, and thus make more power.

So, I’d enjoy seeing a comparo between a Monty engine with Spica and EFI. Same dyno.

I was tempted to use different cam grinds on mine, which can dramatically improve over traditional Alfa grinds, but the Monty combustion chamber is cramped for room, so I left it alone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alfettaparts2

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
You are correct however a modern EFI can optimize every single point of fuel and ign. Spica will never be able to do that. Its a significant difference.

EDIT: excuse me Don I was stuffing my face with a sandwich.
Isn't it also the case the spica fuel map is essentially the internal cam inside the pump. This is designed at the factory and thus preset. It cant learn and has limited adjustment even over a carb. No two engines are the same especially after a few miles have been put on them. Indeed the engine is an air pump but if the system of fuel delivery is compromised surely that's the issue.
Did many aircraft use these older mechanical fuel injection pumps back in the day?
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
The Spica-type pump was derived from the still-in-use diesel injection pumps. I don’t recall any aircraft using the same system. The 300SL did. I’d say it’s lack of broad use was probably more due its cost of manufacturing.

it’s not really useful to compare a modern digital computer to an older analog system. But the Spica was, and remains more capable than carbs.

It’s drawbacks are quiteinsignificant, once you learn how to quickly tune them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
it’s not really useful to compare a modern digital computer to an older analog system. But the Spica was, and remains more capable than carbs.
Don I respect your opinion but I could never agree spica is more capable than carbs. It did its job and met US emission standards but (only my opinion) carbs are infinitely more adjustable and more accurate at metering fuel over all operating parameters. One of those old aged alfa comparisons that will go down in history as one way or the other.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
Don I respect your opinion but I could never agree spica is more capable than carbs. It did its job and met US emission standards but (only my opinion) carbs are infinitely more adjustable and more accurate at metering fuel over all operating parameters. One of those old aged alfa comparisons that will go down in history as one way or the other.
Ha!

In the case of the Montreal, it did not meet emissions for the USA. Plus, Spica was used on the T33 race car. Why?

I think you’re confusing flexibility with effectiveness.

It is relatively easy to change the main jets in Webers if one takes a trip to a different altitude, or the change of seasons significantly changes air density. However, a Spica system automatically corrects for those things. If one wants to add hot cams, big valves, high compression in a Weber engine, it’s just a rejetting job. For a Spica engine, to maximize performance you’ll need significant pump mods and bigger throttle bodies. BUT, the Spica will generally do a better job of making power.

So, I do understand hobbyists preferring carbs, but that’s because of the technical and budget limits of hobbyists as compared to factory efforts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
I understand what your saying and yes I'm talking real world application ie: the general public alfa owner.
I don't think its fair to mention autodelta racing application as a means to justify it being better. Can you imagine the development that went into designing a cam/map for a given engine specification. Its also possible rules where in place over various categories, or alfa specified its use for development purposes.

Even a modified pump will only be a best guess for a worked engine unless you map the engine with an EFI and convert that digital footprint into a analog camshaft which is what a well known alfa workshop has done here.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
I’ve played only with stock street Spica, but been around race stuff. There’s a fellow not far north of me that has a custom Spica pump for racing. It’s been optimized for his engine, and has a nifty control that lets him revise the AFR in real time based upon an AFR gauge in the ****pit. Says he can get a touch more speed on the straights. At least here in the States where a bunch of Spica cars were sold, and raced, we’ve got good maintenance and modification support.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
At least here in the States where a bunch of Spica cars were sold, and raced, we’ve got good maintenance and modification support.
Absolutely. While any alfa mechanic here would see carbs as nothing mysterious there would only be a handful of talented people with experience in spica outside of the Montreal. I am not one of them (y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
Even though we seem to have digressed from the original post. I can comment on the subject matter of webesr, spica , and efi as I have used them all. I also have a Montreal. First off, I think the Spica is an amazing unit and when properly setup works extremely well on a stock motor. I have used stock Spica and HP Spica pumps on my 2 liters depending on modifications and can say it works very well. I got into EFI when I supercharged a 2 liter and needed the ability to adjust timing as well as fuel. The tuning flexibility of EFI is needed under extreme modifications. On a stock Alfa motor EFI can probably get better emissions and better throttle response which is hardly worth the cost and effort of conversion. Same could be said for Webers. The Spica lacks the acceleration pump which gives the Webers better throttle response. Again, in my opinion not worth the cost if stock. Modifying a Montreal engine to the point you need EFI would be significant. EFI is technically the best way to go with a unlimited budget.
I’m currently running Megasquirt on 2 of my 2 liter cars, keep in mind when you go custom EFI on these engine you are pretty much on your own for support. There just not that many nuts like me out there doing this stuff, and no two cars are ever alike.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,451 Posts
Just a detail...

I wouldn’t say that a Spica has no accelerator pump. It just works differently.

An accelerator pump is intended to supply enough fuel quickly in response to the sudden opening of the throttle, which is suddenly providing more air, but without the velocity necessary to draw sufficient fuel out of the auxiliary Venturi.

Snapping on the throttles of a Spica car moves the Spica cam rack, resulting in more highly pressurized fuel coming out of the injectors.

The symptom of too much throttle and not enough fuel is a gasp and loss of power. I never had that happen on my Montreal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
True, I agree, but I still think webers and efi still have better throttle respnose. Like I said, I am still a big fan of Spica injection.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top