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Discussion Starter #161 (Edited)
Master blaster

I visited Dexter, the blaster dude, today. They'd got some done over the weekend, but not really all that much. Must have been a sporting event or something trivial that got in the way. The actual hands-on guy, Eric, had a bad toothache today, so not much got done today, either. But, I got to watch a bit, and get a hint of what was under the paint, primer, and bondo.

Not all that bad, on the scale of Touring 102s.

The left sill bottom is unblemished. Wow. Never saw one of those before. Floor boards, ditto. A bit of perforation on the left rocker, but that's not surprising. Some minor perforations in the left door bottom drain-groove. That's a bit more difficult, but we'll work it out.

The media blaster looks like something from Robocop. I should have taken a picture of the trailer-mounted thing, but was more focused on the car. Eric, due to not having a face shield, was holding the blast nozzle at least three feet from the surface of the car, and whatever was on the car was leaving in a hurry. We finally got him a face mask, and to lean in, and things started moving. I'll post a video once I can figure out how.

Anything silver on the car is bare metal.

Also today...

Got the convertible top frame hardware cleaned, and blackened, the clutch slave cylinder dismantled, cleaned, coated, and ready for rebuild, and the front brake adjusters cleaned and ready for reassembly. Lots of moving about the shop in frenetic motion.
 

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Pete,

The car we know as the "Berlina" was introduced in the US in 1969 with a 1750, all-aluminum, engine.

The model 10200 four door was referred to in the US as a "Sedan". It may have been referred to as a berlina (small case "b") in Germany, but I'm not sure of that. It had a similar cast-iron 2000 to the Coupe and Roadster, but with slightly lower compression and a two-barrel downdraft carb.
Sales literature indicates the Sedan was called Berlina in Europe. The lower case "b" is insignificant, as the same series of sales documents calls the Spider a "spider" and the Sprint a "sprint" and the Giulietta series as "giulietta" -- at about the same time that some trim scripts changed from "Alfa Romeo" to "alfa romeo", presumably in an attenpt to modernize Alfa's image.

SX21.jpg

SX58.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #163
Or, were they a "saloon"?

I don't have the answer, but suspect we tend to apply modern nomenclature rules to previous eras.

I consider sales literature to be an inferior source of documentation. These were often prepared by the importer, and not Alfa.

"saloon", "sedan", and "berlina" were generic names from different countries, for a body style. What did Alfa call them in their in-house technical literature?
 

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Or, were they a "saloon"?

I don't have the answer, but suspect we tend to apply modern nomenclature rules to previous eras.

I consider sales literature to be an inferior source of documentation. These were often prepared by the importer, and not Alfa.

"saloon", "sedan", and "berlina" were generic names from different countries, for a body style. What did Alfa call them in their in-house technical literature?
Here are the answers from the Italian and English parts catalogs:

Pub. 685 - p.004 (700 wide).jpg

Pub. 728 - p.004 (700 wide).jpg
 
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Discussion Starter #165
So, in English, we have Sedans and Roadsters, just as I remembered.
 

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Discussion Starter #166
It is probably a minute distinction of no great importance, but I think my point has to do with the difference between a formal name, and an informal style.

For instance, in the US, a car manufacturer might make a style of car called a "station wagon", and name it something like "Brookwood". The same style in England might called an "estate" or "shooting brake".

With this distinction, we see that Alfa tended to name their cars as a "Giulia", or "2000", and apend the style in the local language to distinguish among convertible, coupe, and sedan. It appears by the mid to late 60's, they started to move toward the US style of marketing department names, but with a fair degree of inconsistency.

I think this is why our 2000s were originally sold as Roadsters in the US, but somewhere around the change to the 2600, someone in the marketing department decided to use the Italian term as sounding more exotic.

It would be incorrect, I think, to call an early 102-2000 a Spider, just like calling a 67 Super a Berlina.
 

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...or a Spider 1600 a Duetto. :devil2:
 

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The Italian word Berlina translates to sedan in english.
 
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I think this is why our 2000s were originally sold as Roadsters in the US, but somewhere around the change to the 2600, someone in the marketing department decided to use the Italian term as sounding more exotic.

It would be incorrect, I think, to call an early 102-2000 a Spider, just like calling a 67 Super a Berlina.
I agree with the above with the exception of referring to our cars as "2000's".

Twenty eight years ago (my daughter was 2 months old, so believe me, I remember!) 'then' wife and I excitedly returned from Huntsville, AL with S/N...1844 (well, I was excited anyway). I called our buddy Jay the 'Two-Liter lover' and shared the good news. He specifically asked me to refer to our cars as "Two-liters" to distinguish them from the later 2000's. So it is out of respect for Jay that I have endeared to use "Two-liter" when referring to these cars.

Lately I have been impressed with the "Touring Roadster" moniker as it seems more fitting for such a 'piece of art' and includes the 2600's -which could also be referred to as "Touring Spiders".

Now a 1600 Spider from '66-67 is a Duetto. There were other 1600 Spiders, which we call 'Giulias' or perhaps the "Old Giulias" now that there is a new Giulia. The cars similar looking to the Duetto that came later we call "Boat tails" also have a clever new, all encompassing name "Long tail Spiders" -which I quite like.

Mark
 

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I think this is why our 2000s were originally sold as Roadsters in the US, but somewhere around the change to the 2600, someone in the marketing department decided to use the Italian term as sounding more exotic.
Don't forget that during this period, distribution in the USA changed from independent importers (mainly Hoffman) to the Alfa subsidiary Alfa Romeo Inc. It seems sensible to think that this brought with it a change in language and attitude.
 

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I learned this about Roadster/speedster vs Convertible/Spider/Cabriolet: a roadster's top does not fold down - perhaps the frame does, but the top is typically taken off and put in the trunk. A convertible has a top that folds down and is stored "on the frame" so that it can be pulled back up - hence converting the car from coupe to open air. Spider to me has always associated with the convertible - not sure Alfa ever made a roadster?

The original print Hoffman Motors ad I have for the 2000 calls it out as Spider. Never seen it referred to as a speedster.
 

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...or a Spider 1600 a Duetto. :devil2:
The cars similar looking to the Duetto that came later we call "Boat tails" also have a clever new, all encompassing name "Long tail Spiders" -which I quite like.


While visiting a classic Alfa club in Italy last September for a 2-day event, I brought up this perceived distinction in name in a conversation with some hardcore Alfisti who consider themselves to be the Alfa Romeo Taliban (who don't tolerate any deviation from factory standard). They laughed about it and called the notion of limiting the word Duetto to 1600 Spiders "typically American." The they told me that, in Italy, even S4 Spiders are called Duetto. By the same token, they vehemently objected to the term "Giulietta SVZ" and said it should be called a Giulietta Sprint Veloce Series 1.

Now, returning to 102 cars, one should not forget that the appearance of the 2000 Spider (European version) is different than the Two-Liter Roadster (USA version) in the sense that hood and some internal and external trim is different (as per the parts catalog). So, aside from whoever was in charge of sales and marketing at the time, these names could become useful labels for these differences. I'm glad they didn't call the 102 US model "120" for its cubic inch displacement.
 

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Discussion Starter #173
Dan

The factory shop manual only calls it a Roadster, not a Spider.

My tongue in cheek point being there is a difference in type and a formal name. "Berlina" (capital B) would only be an Alfa sedan between 69 and 74. A "berlina" (lower case b) could be any four-door Alfa from any year.

Same with Spider and spider.

I'm sticking with "Touring 2-litre Roadster".
 

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The factory shop manual only calls it a Roadster, not a Spider.
@Jim G touched on this in post 168. So I looked at a number of user, parts and workshop manuals. The English language manuals indeed use the term Roadster and, for the four door model, the Sedan. The Italian language manuals however use Spider and Berlina (with a capital B) respectively.

I will not derail Don's thread straightening out the confusion over a 1600 Spider (101 Series) and a Spider 1600 (105 Series). That's for a different thread for another day.
 

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Discussion Starter #175
Maybe "Roadster" and "Sedan" imply a degree of sophistication and stateliness not imparted by "Spider" or "Berlina"? 'Mericans don't need to use no froo-froo Eyetalian words to sound cool, right?
 

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Same mess on Spiders

To me a two liter spider is a cast iron 10204 Vin number convertible made between 1958 and 1962. But Alfa also made a later all aluminum two liter engine with steel sleeves. Those are to me called 2000 spiders, not two liter spiders. But others call them two liter spiders. So why all this Berlina and Sedan or Spider or Roadster. But when when I say I am the OLD (82 yrs old) twoliterlover, I am referring to the 102 series two liter spiders. My two liter Sedan has always been a Berlina. And the Sprint is not a Coupe despite being two door. Strangely, there are almost no 10205 VIN two liter sprints left. I do NOT believe 702 were ever made. They did not sell well after being presented in the 1961 European auto show, and in 1962 Alfa sold all the 102 series tooling to a Brazialian company. Suddenly there was a conversion and a "6" added to the chassis number after the asterisk with a final five digits and they had scoop hoods, a better interior plus a moved radiator to fit a 106 engine. Some even got the new 2600 hubcaps, but Alfa stuck 2000 sprint hubcaps on the early 2600 spiders too for a while -- maybe while the hood still opened from the front and hinged up in back. Never, I say never, believe Alfa wasted components as the cars came out. Don't get your tails in a knot. The first 436 102 blocks were actually 1900 blocks with the rear main bearing wide like one and three; those subsequent had only one and three wide and the rest narrow. Finally, even those blocks did not get placed sequentially in one chassis after another with sequential numbers. Alfa was not totally dumb in that regard. Who would want to buy a spider in 1959 with a VIN number no greater than the actual 64 of which we have actual records (Fusi says 62) made in 1958 (by skipping around in numbers the last VIN number on a twoliter from 1958 was 00232). Don's 01488 was manufactured in 1960. And, finally, sometimes the license registration on a car in the US was based on the date of sale rather than manufacture (and sometimes even is by motor number instead of the chassis VIN. For example my 1960 sprint (the first of five made that year) is 00019, but the California registration in the US was done with the 00008 engine number). Not everything is ascertainable except by research, and by guess at least until the Italian cars started using the ZAP as part of the 17 digit VIN numbers. But that is not strange. I know of a 1955 Mercedes with merely a 7 digit VIN.
 

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TwoLiterLover,

I hope that you and 'Honey Mom' and all your many children and grandchildren are all doing well.

I just realized that I am older now than you were when we first spoke -28 years ago!

How is your Sprint coming? Is it Lexus yellow yet?

Ciao,

Mark
Touring Roadster Lover;-)
 

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Well. This is earliest Advertisement for twoliter

Sometimes the "old ducks" who lived in the era the cars were produced have fond memories of the first advertisements they saw about the cars they later came to love. Here is one for the Alfa 2000 SPIDER when it was a two liter before there was any confusion with those silly little cars with aluminum block engines:
 

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Discussion Starter #179
Jay,

In case you're interested... The color of the car I'm doing now is Giallo Paglierino. "Hay Yellow".

I found several patches on my car that were covered by things when it was repainted red. I thought it was Grigio Biacca until the note from the Museo arrived telling me it was yellow. Upon a closer look, I can see that the original color was very nearly white, but with a hint of yellow and light green. Precisely a "hay yellow" after it has been cut, but before it is completely dry.

That might be a good compromise between your Sprint's original white and the yellow you'd like?
 

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Had one that color already

Don,
I had a spider originally sold in Switzerland (European side trim, side turn signals, hardtop, Nardi steering wheel, binnacle mounted rear view mirror, grab handle, and the lower inside motor compartment fairing around the level of the oil pan (seemingly a very late two liter, because that fairing is standard on the two liter sprint and was also on the Sportiva as Tom Zat has it on his too). It was "hay" yellow colored, but did not stand out or "strike" anyone because it was not at all shiny. I recall driving that car to Roseburg, Oregon where I delivered it to an Oregon buyer who traveled North from Medford. But I had already removed the hardtop, the Nardi wheel and the grab handle (I already had the rest) which are still on my favorite spider. Anyway, I cried (yes, I confess I cried) when I heard it drive off down I-5. It had the special sweet sound. I had to ride the bus back to Seattle but had a wonderful experience at a bus hotel recommended to me by the bus driver as a "cheap dive" on the way to Portland. Anyway the Medford buyer decided to paint the car "dove" gray because that supposedly does not show dents, and he resold it to a young woman in Fresno, California whose father owned a cannery. She blew the engine trying to out run a passing car on the freeway from a standing start. Not surprising because two liters are NOT sprint cars, but touring (as well as "Touring") cars. Somehow she traced the car back to me, begged me to fix the motor for her, and delivered it to me personally on a trailer behind her jeep. I was able to deliver it to her in Fresno, driving very carefully for at least forty miles of the trip because a CSP officer was just as carefully dogging right behind me waiting for me to speed as he had perhaps once thought he had seen from a distance. After delivering that car I then ducked over to San Jose as the lawyer guy I am to discover how that California County had so swiftly rid itself of a huge court backlog, only to discover it had raised the monetary jurisdiction on suits in municipal courts to $50,000, made arbitration manatory, and then limiting by pre-examination by vounteer member of the bar the issues on each divorce case that would be hear, the examiner actually allocating the time limit for the arguments. On reporting that information officially to the to the King County Superior Court judges in Seattle their considered decision was to make all cases under $25,000 subject to mandatory arbitration. Nevertheless one can now expect to have a case heard within a year of filing it unless delays are formally requested.

Oh, yes, I later read in Hemmings that a wonderful two liter was for sale in Connecticutt touted as once being owned by that famous two liter lover called Jay Nuxoll in Seattle. Upon investigation I discovered it the one from Switzerland that I last saw in Fresno in 1971. Wonder if it still exists?

Moral of the story, Don, is that if I am going to make a Yellow sprint the color will burn your eyeballs. I might make it two tone with a medium brown top. It's my car and I can do as I dang well please, can't I? I once saw a 1900 series III CSS with bright yellow (more lemon yellow) and black top at Festivo Italiano in 1994 while it was still at Quail Lodge in Carmel and have always remembered it as especially attractive. It was recently sold for big money at Fantasy Junction.

Unfortunately, due to the history of the car as the very first one and also making the rounds of the European car shows in 1961 my son keeps insisting that it must be restored to its original white. If so, you can come and help me hang magnets on it, but don't count on it. Yuk!
Jay
 
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