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Discussion Starter #641
On either side of the door windows is a strip of black felt, or fuzz, or brushy material that keeps dirt and other things from falling down into the body of the door. They also reduce the amount of water that will fall into the interior of the door, but they are not perfect in this duty.

The clutch pressure plate is held onto the flywheel by six bolts. Three of the bolts have a larger than standard shank just below the head, which act as a dowel pin to perfectly center the plate onto the flywheel.
 

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On either side of the door windows is a strip of black felt, or fuzz, or brushy material that keeps dirt and other things from falling down into the body of the door. They also reduce the amount of water that will fall into the interior of the door, but they are not perfect in this duty.
You need 2 different types :

One with an aluminium trim :
https://www.enpi-retro-auto.com/index.php?id_product=1523&controller=product

One without :
https://www.enpi-retro-auto.com/index.php?id_product=228&controller=product
 

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Discussion Starter #644
Yes, exactly. Cicognani shipped me four pieces with the stainless trim, and I need, as you stated, two of each. As Cico screwed me out of $159 by double shipping an order and refusing to address the problem, I will no longer buy from them.

I've spent hours searching for the piece you note ""25900", but have not been able to find it here in the US. I will keep looking awhile longer. If I am unsuccessful, perhaps I could impose upon your services once again?
 

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Discussion Starter #646
Div,

Yeah, that would probably work. However, the ones that Serge linked me to are the ones I'm used to seeing on the 102, one with the stainless trim, and one without. I've already received four with the stainless, of which two would be correct, so am looking to match the ones I have with the ones without the trim.

As it happens, my business partner lives in Paris most of the year, and speaks/reads Frenchian, so I asked her to see if she could order them. The linked website does not offer an "English" button, which strikes me as consistent with the French view of the global economy. She just reported that she almost completed the order, but was a bit confused when it noted the freight to the US was Free. This would make sense only if the website understood "USA" to be a suburb of Paris, which also seems consistent with the French world view.

On the plus, they note they are open on Saturday mornings, so perhaps we'll have this all sorted out shortly.

Meanwhile, I've just unpacked the World Upholstery seats, and am in tears. NOT the quality of work I'm used to from them. It'll be interesting to see how this works out.
 

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Discussion Starter #647
John

Here’s a few pivot bolt pics.
 

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Discussion Starter #649
Nope. The 2000 and 2600 are entirely different in this area.
 

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Discussion Starter #650
Auto brakes

As is tradition, discipline will not be enforced, but creativity will be applauded.

So...... 1488 has auto-adjusting brakes that C Ondrak denies and J.Nuxoll defines.

Current situation....

With front and rear adjusted to complete lockup, I get about a 50% pedal depression. Adjusted to free rotation, pedal goes to floor.

The variables.....

Shoe parallelism. Two grub screws per wheel.
Manual wear eccentric. 2 at front, 1 at rear.
Air entrapment in Castrol DOT4. 1 gallon of Castrol DOT4 expended purging air.
Master cylinder “free play”.
Shoe release adjustment (eccentric), to slight friction.


What’s next?
 

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Hi Don

The joy of brakes - bear in mind that I have Giulietta's and not a 102

Shoe parallelism. Two grub screws per wheel - Once the shoe is hard up against the drum, the grub screws can be lightly adjusted to ensure that the shoes are parallel

Manual wear eccentric. 2 at front, 1 at rear. - Unlikely, once you have set the shoes, they usually stay where they are, unless pedal pressure causes the adjuster to slip completely, but then you have fresh & full linings so hardly any adjustment needed

Air entrapment in Castrol DOT4. 1 gallon of Castrol DOT4 expended purging air. - Definitely a possibility, do you have or can you borrow a vacuum pump to suck air up from the system via the reservoir tin - this will 100% purge the MC I have a clear plastic lid with a pipe in the middle of it that I used to use over the reservoirs and suck gently while watching the bubbles... I now have a vacuum pump

Master cylinder “free play” - Very real posibility, but unless you are horribly off with your initial adjustment it should just give you a long or low pedal, 1 or 2 turns up will restore the pedal height - on the Giulietta it requires the pedal box to be removed...

Shoe release adjustment (eccentric), to slight friction - Shouldn't be a big factor & certainly shouldn't give you a zero pedal

Another quirk that occasional happens is getting the bleeder screws at the bottom of the backing plate, but unlikely as I suspect that you can't really fluff this one with the position of the cylinders on the backing plates. It happens occasionally with disc calipers where the left & right are transposed and the bleeder ends up at the bottom & the caliper can't bleed (mentioned purely for info to others reading this)

I suspect that you have air entrapment somewhere, try clamping off the rears and just working with the fronts = a 50% reduction in possibilities, once you have the fronts working, then add the rears into the mix

Wish I was closer to lend a hand Don, but it's a 25000 mile commute and there's a big pond in between us

Ciao
Greig
 

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Discussion Starter #652
I left out what may be a big variable.

The late 102s and early 106s have drum brakes that are generally referred to as “auto adjusting”. The more I study the system, the less I agree that they are auto-adjusting, and I know that Christian Ondrak of OKP claims they are not. However, these later style brakes, for which I can find no factory service instructions, have a unique feature as compared to the earlier system.

Each brake shoe has a very large nut in the middle of the shoe web that has a pin on the back side that fits into a slotted pin on the backing plate. This nut/pin on the shoes can slide, with significant friction, in such a way that it can prevent the shoe from completely retracting. The theory is that things work to keep the shoe from retracting as the friction surface of the shoe wears, keeping the shoe in close contact to the drum. Yes, but if one never adjusts the square wear-adjuster, the wheel cylinder will eventually reach the end of its extension.

Yesterday, I found that my left rear shoes had their large slider-nuts fully slid out, such that the wheel cylinder was nearly fully extended. I pushed the big nuts back into their retracted position, which led to the wheel cylinder having its pistons retracted also.

Note that my shoes do not have new friction surfaces, but based upon comparison to NOS friction surfaces in my stock, they are quite close to new thickness.

I adjusted the parallelism when I built up the brakes. On the 102, past experience is that if the shoes aren’t parallel, you can’t get the drums on. I will be checking, using the method you suggested. That’s been my SOP for years, but at this point I’m betting that the set is good.

The obvious suspicion is trapped air. I have never had a problem bleeding a 102 before, generally getting a good, solid, high pedal after the first go at bleeding. With the rear hose clamped, I get a fairly high firm pedal, suggesting the front adjustments are good. I might have expected a higher pedal, but it firms up after about 2” of throw.

It’ll be a couple of days before I can get back to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #653
Hold my beer boys, I’m going back in

I’ll be removing and either repairing or replacing the brake master cylinder today.

Having repeated every iteration several times, the behavior I’m seeing suggests a faulty seal in the master cylinder. This cylinder was the one I received back from Dave Rundle in an exchange to help him isolate his brake issues. He later reported his problem was not the MC, rather a missing seal from a wheel cylinder. The MC I received was supposedly a fresh overhaul, so I used it on 1488. Now, I’m not so sure about the quality of any overhaul. I’ve got kits, plus a cylinder I rebuilt, so I should be able to effect the swap today. I’m tired of working with brake fluid. Nasty stuff.

Webcam seems to understand where they went wrong, and are busy redoing the cams. We’ll see.

WULPH is making two, new seat covers sets. One set that I received was installed on the seat frame very poorly. Both the seat cover and cam issues strike me as having not enough time to do it right the first time, but enough to do them over again.

Long day in the shop ahead.
 

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Both the seat cover and cam issues strike me as having not enough time to do it right the first time, but enough to do them over again.
Can I get an amen! It sounds like the brake master cylinder falls into the same classification as the seat cover and the cam issues.

When I rebuilt the Duetto 35 years ago; I had to remove the starter motor three times before the rebuild shop got it right. They were trying to use an aftermarket solenoid that just did not work. The third time the shop installed a Bosch solenoid.

I pulled the starter motor back off the engine this morning in preparation for pulling the engine to rebuild it again. Pulling the starter was a bigger PITA than I had remembered; now I understand why I was a bit upset when told that I had to remove the starter for the third time...I guess that if I had rebuilt the engine right the first time, I would not be doing it over again myself.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #655
The MC change went better than I remembered. Miraculously, no evidence of leaks after it was in.

By pumping the MC by hand, I can hear it working, including the piston returning to position with a click a few milliseconds after pedal release.

The good news... I have gotten some pedal. Not enough. Pumping the pedal brings it up, but not enough. Then, after a pause, it’s too low again, but stopping before going all the way down.

The left rear seems to have trouble bleeding. I have to unscrew the bleeder quite a lot to get much flow. Then, a mess occurs, hinting that the flow may be what’s going onto the floor instead of through the cylinder. Which is NEW Girling.

I bought the Dorman bleeders, but the thread sealant is pretty much single-use. Then, leakage past the threads again. I also bought two pair of the equivalent Russell bleeders. Better thread sealant, and about 1/2” longer overall. This makes them easier to access at the rear. I don’t plan to use them in the front, as they would be slightly exposed, and a sheared bleeder strikes me as being un-fun.

I’m ready to move on..... argh.......
 

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All these exchanges are a little complicated to follow for me who have an imperfect English.

What I can tell :
Bleeding the brakes is a real mess, we can all testify.
I bought this: https://www.amazon.fr/Gunson-77021-Système-professionnel-liquide/dp/B002WD5XOQ
It works very well. And as soon as someone has trouble bleeding (the clutch is sometimes worse, I have a long story on the 2600 one) I come to the rescue with this tool. It has always made the unhappy man smile.
If you don't have it, remember :
But a real “guy” never turns down a reasonable excuse to buy a new tool.
You can replace the bleeders thread sealant by copper grease

Do not give up, Don, we're all behind you!
 

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This isn't the first time I've heard "new Girling" cylinders ( not made by Girling) are false security. I've always depended on rebuilt originals using only Scotchbrite to hone the alloy ones. They have always given me expected results. I'm not familiar with the ones used on a 102.
 

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Discussion Starter #658
Actually, “New Girling” in Girling boxes.

Turns out, the rear cylinders on a 102 were also fitted to a Rover Wombat or something, and the cylinders litter the shelves of British tobbaconist stores, sitting right next to their “Polish-English dictionaries”, which provide the translation for “good morning, which way to the underground” as “I wish to caress your thighs, and lick your buttocks”.

Seems the perfect storehouse for 102 parts.
 

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Discussion Starter #660
"Chcę pieścić Twoje uda i polizać twoje pośladki".
Somebody may not have grown up with Monty Python..
 
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