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Discussion Starter #1
Last night my son and I took a couple of Marcello Gandini's design out for some 'night moves' on the back roads of north Georgia. We stopped for fuel and to adjust headlights (we turned them off for the picture).

photo 2.JPG
photo 1.JPG

The 5 series is quick off the line with its bigger engine but the Montreal catches up quick after the 'dog leg' to second gear change.
photo 3.JPG

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Kai,
It is amazing how much larger the 5 series Bimmer is from the rear. Earlier I saw a photo of a Miura 'back to back' with a Montreal on Bruce's Montreal info site and I thought the same thing of the Montreal (being taller than the Miura).
Mark
 

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I thought the 5-series was a Paul Bracq design. Nice contrast though. Taking either to Eurofest or H-Head Mark?
 

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The Germans weren't very good with design credits (everything's by committee, apparently), so there's a lot of conflicting information out there who designed the first 5-series.

For instance, the well known "Hofmeister kink" was first seen on a BMW penned by Giugiaro (the 3200 CS), but design boss Hofmeister got his name stuck on it forever.

Gandini did the BMW 2200ti "Garmisch" one-off which the E12 was based on, while car designer Paul Bracq was the design boss at BMW when the E12 took shape. Pietro Frua is also often credited with the E12, but probably because he designed the Glas cars which BMW bought (it's complicated) and took a few styling cues from.

Here's the "Garmisch" from 1970:
 

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The Germans weren't very good with design credits (everything's by committee, apparently), so there's a lot of conflicting information out there who designed the first 5-series.

For instance, the well known "Hofmeister kink" was first seen on a BMW penned by Giugiaro (the 3200 CS), but design boss Hofmeister got his name stuck on it forever.

Gandini did the BMW 2200ti "Garmisch" one-off which the E12 was based on, while car designer Paul Bracq was the design boss at BMW when the E12 took shape. Pietro Frua is also often credited with the E12, but probably because he designed the Glas cars which BMW bought (it's complicated) and took a few styling cues from.

Here's the "Garmisch" from 1970:
And the Glas 1700 design started out as a Borgward Isabelle replacement commissioned by Borgward GMBH. Borgward came into troubles in 1960 and BMW's financial director was called in to help the receivers - so BMW got rid of a competitor to their New Generation model 1500>2000 (even though Borgward wasn't bankrupt). Later BMW bought Glas for the same reason. So all goes in circles.
Erik
 

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Yup. It's sort-of an official secret that BMW wouldn't be here today if they hadn't used some pretty questionable boardroom tactics (or should I say antics?) to get rid of Borgward. At the time (1960), BMW sold small crap cars in the shadow of "the big three": Opel, Borgward and Mercedes-Benz.

What haven't changed though is their "me too innovation". They build everything 10 years after their competitors, only heavier, more robust and more expensive. Or "better", if you're so inclined.

Very nice but ultimately boring cars.
(At this point, BMW fanboys usually throw technical specifications at me)

Did I mention I'm no fan of BMWs? :)
 

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I am certainly not a BMW fan, but I kind of like their M3 and M4 models as they have always been in competition with Alfa. I dont think the M cars are late in technology either. Unfortunately Alfa for the time has very little to brag about, just 3 small cars! We are eternally waiting for a new Montreal, a new GTV and bigger sedan than the Giulietta. Maybe the New Giulia presumbaly based on the Maserati Ghibli wil be a competitor to BMW and Audi in midsize.
Anyway while Things happen slowly at Alfa, no racing any more, we can look at BMW Z4 GT3. Would not say no thanks to try that one! :)

BMW Motorsport : Cars : BMW Z4 GT3

GK.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am no fan of BMW's either although a neighbor's wife recently purchased herself a new 5 series in midnight blue and it is really NICE! She first bought a 330Csi (I think?) that was pre-owned but looked like new. They had nothing but trouble with that car; it could not pass a shop without expensive problems. So far the 5 series has been trouble free.


I also read the article about BMW Z4 race car driver Alex Zanardi doing the Ironman Hawaii with no legs, wow, pretty amazing!
BMW Motorsport : News : Social Media Stream

Marcello Gandini did some amazing work:
Marcello Gandini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Road & Track has a special design issue this month with an article on Bertone that is pretty interesting...

Mark
 

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I am no fan of BMW's either although a neighbor's wife recently purchased herself a new 5 series in midnight blue and it is really NICE! She first bought a 330Csi (I think?) that was pre-owned but looked like new. They had nothing but trouble with that car; it could not pass a shop without expensive problems.

Mark
A german BMW owner I knew, telling his BMW had to be repaired again told me that the germans said that BMW was short for "Bring Mich zum Werkstatt" (drive me to the repair shop). ! Could be there were a lot of faults with those cars ! :)

GK.
 

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Despite what reputation a car brand has it always need service and repair. However, back in my car selling days I traded a BMW 2500 in (for a new Rover 3500) the owner told me, that each time he'd been to service with the BMW he had to bring it back for some fault finding. BTW the BMW was about 5 years old, it had already been treated to two new front fenders which was fitted to rusty inner fenders. Non the less, when we had repaired the inner fenders and service it and put an ad in the papers buyers queued up.
Anyway, since my last entry here I've read up on when Borgward folded. The person working for the receivers was no less than Johannes Semle, chair man of the BMW advisory board. It's like letting the fox into the chicken yard.
However, Carl Borgward wasn't a very good business in his older days, very autocratic and rude. At the Frankfurt Motor Show en was having a conversation with Bundes Kansler Adenauer while puffing on a big cigar. Adenauer didn't smoke and was quite anointed.
Erik
 

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So many modern cars have problems with electronic parts. Also my MB and my brother in lows BMW 535. Both 6 years old and everytime you have mailfunctions on it. Thats why I drive Montreal, no electronic parts in it!! :whistling: so no problems with the car. But we talk about the design, right.

Chears Kai
 

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Discussion Starter #14
When I bought a brand new 1992, Alfa Romeo 164-S from my brother-in-laws (family) dealership he looked me in the eye and said "it would be as dependable as a Toyota". At that point I had about half a dozen Alfa's (60 2L, 66, 74, 75 Spiders, 74 Berlina...and a Toyota or two) so I laughed and said 'yea right'.

Well ten years later the 2002 TRD S/Cquoia, with lower mileage, has a repair file that is much thicker than that of the Alfa 164! It has been in the shop multiple times for numerous issues like non starting, stalling, unintended 'non- acceleration'; new throttle body assembly ($1,400), all new O2 sensors (1100), radiator (700), A/C (3,600 lasted 2 years), catalytic converters needed (2,200)...

The Alfa has not been perfect but it has more soul and generates more passion. Oh, yes the design: The Alfa turns more heads than a centerfold taped to a stop sign! It always draws thumbs up and positive comments. The Toyota might as well be invisible.
Mark
 
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