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Making a sick gtv6 healthy again...on a budget.

4156 Views 30 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  as-of-now, 
as-of-now
Hello everyone, let me start out by saying that I've laid dormant for a while, because of a move to Florida, and back out to California again, a motorcycle accident, and some good old fashioned procrastination - but it's good to be back. Anyway, I have a '86 GTV6 from my father that has sat neglected for a while. The car has a few problems, that are as follows:

1. Car leaks oil (well, all italians do), but the cause is the rear main engine seal going bad.

2. Camshaft Seal Bearings need replacing, and this COULD be the cause of my next problem.

3. Just put in new spark plugs and I have a "fouling" at the third cylinder, the spark plug is wet with oil. (I don't know why)

4. The middle doughnut for the drive shaft needs replacing.

5. There's some minor rust around one of wheel wells, and in the rear trunk - around the spare.

All in all, these cars aren't worth much, but I don't want to part with the car I have, because it was my fathers' car. Also, the car only had one owner before him, it's red on black, the interior is VERY clean, it's an '86 with 90k miles, and what's the alternative... an e36 m3? They're nice, but I could see myself outgrowing one and becoming bored with my purchase, pretty easily.

I was thinking that the mechanical problems I'm faced with could be expensive so my questions are as follows:

1. Is it possible to replace the seals mentioned above (both rear engine and camshaft) without taking the engine out? or is it a relatively lengthy, time and money consuming process?

2. I think the cause of the wet spark plug could be the bad camshaft seals, but I have no idea. Any guesses as to what could be going on?

3. The rust and doughnut are easy and cheap fixes (I could do that myself), but if the other problems with the seals and sparkplug may not be. My thinking is that IF I will spend a good few thousand in labor/parts and be paying a mechanic to work on my car anyway, I should consider putting a new engine in. So, any guesses on the difficulty/cost of replacing the seals and fixing the sparkplug?

I thought the natural choice for an engine swap would be the milano verde. I have decided I don't want to go the route of forced induction. I don't have much money to spend, but if possible, a 164 engine would be a great one stick under the hood. I've seen 24v conversions like cchan's around here, and while I would love to do a conversion like that, I just can't afford it... So.....The last question I have is, is the 164 12v engine a much easier job than the 24v? i.e. - my happy medium between the relatively easy verde swap, and the more complicated 24v swap? or should I stick to the verde engine because it's just the easier more cost effective option?

I hope all this made sense, I am just trying to explain my way of thinking to everyone of the forum. I want more power under the hood, want to fix the problems that are there, either by overhauling the existing engine, or replacing what's there with something better, if it doesn't break the bank.

Also, ideas or speculations on hp and torque gain (in all scenarios: overhauling existing 2.5, a 3.0 verde, or a 164 3.0 12v) would be appreciated...
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alfaparticle
I am in a similar situation to you. I recently bought a straight, rust free GTV6. I plan to eventually have a 250hp motor in it. I own a couple of Verdes but I don't plan to part one out for the engine. 164 engines are easier to find. I have talked to Richard Jemison about it.He reckons that the 164L is a good engine as it has strong rockers. But you need a 2.5 donor engine for the distributor drive and some other things. That may not be a problem for you if your 2.5 needs rebuilding anyway.

I talk regularly with Al Mitchell who races a GTV6 and a Milano and who has his own dyno. I am convinced that porting, good cams, AFM free induction + megasquirt, higher compression & improved exhaust will get me more than enough power. I just need to make the Milano Verde/164L decision.
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as-of-now
alfaparticle said:
I am in a similar situation to you. I recently bought a straight, rust free GTV6. I plan to eventually have a 250hp motor in it. I own a couple of Verdes but I don't plan to part one out for the engine. 164 engines are easier to find. I have talked to Richard Jemison about it.He reckons that the 164L is a good engine as it has strong rockers. But you need a 2.5 donor engine for the distributor drive and some other things. That may not be a problem for you if your 2.5 needs rebuilding anyway.

I talk regularly with Al Mitchell who races a GTV6 and a Milano and who has his own dyno. I am convinced that porting, good cams, AFM free induction + megasquirt, higher compression & improved exhaust will get me more than enough power. I just need to make the Milano Verde/164L decision.
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Ha, glad to know I'm not the only one. 250 is also a "golden number" for me, although, I don't know if I could reach that kind of power on my budget. I was thinking of using my old 2.5 as the donor engine, yes.

However, I just realized, after doing some digging around, that the difference in HP between a milano verde 180-ish, to the 12v 164 200-is isn't so great, so maybe it isn't worth my trouble to get the 164 engine in there.

I figure whatever will be under the hood will, in time, get "hot" headers, cams, pistons, exhaust, etc... So I'll be around 220 or 230 if I'm lucky, with the verde engine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, the difference between power of the verde engine and 12v 164 is so small, that my quest seems to have taken a turn:

It's between the verde and just fixing what's there, until I have the money to stick a 24v under the hood.
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as-of-now
Ok, to sum it up, what does everyone think about my strange wet sparkplug problem? any guesses as to what could cause this?

Also, couldn't one just take a milano engine, and sitck a 12v 164 intake on it ? or is it not that simple?
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A
Sounds like a bad Piston ring. The front cam seals could be changed w/out removing the motor easily. The rear I think so as well, but I never had to do 1, but if I did I'd pull out the motor. Too old to sit on my back that long. If your gonna do it right I pull it. it'll be much easier to address your drive shaft issues with the motor out. Also you can go through the motor in a more comfortable position than leaning over into an engine bay.
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O
HI As Of Now. Not sure what your mechanical comfort zone is but here's my 2 cents worth:

Pull the engine.

1) You have to remove the drive shaft to fix the dud centre donut so that's going to require the vast majority of the exhaust to come off. Those two items on their own are a big chunk of the engine removal process so you're maybe 30% there.

2) Your rear main seal is leaking so you're going to have to pull the motor anyway. Now, there may be some people out there who have found a way to pull the extension housing off the back of the engine while it's still in the car and that will allow you to remove the flywheel but I'll bet it'll be a PITA of a job and you'll end up spending a ton of time doing it. Even though yanking the engine out isn't a total joy, the ease of access to everything makes life much easier. Pull it out, remove the extension housing, whip the flywheel off, change the rear main seal.

3) Cam bearing seals and wet spark plugs. OK, we need to clarify a little here. You have cam bearing seals in the front of the head (these actually seal on the cam shaft itself), you also have a seal in between the two halves of the cam pulley. A problem with either of these will result in oil on the affected cam pulley and in the adjacent area on the front of the engine. NEITHER of these will have anything to do with the spark plugs. When you say you have a "fouled" spark plug is the electrode wet or are you seeing oil on the ceramic outside of the plug? If the electrode is fouled with oil then you COULD have bad rings in that cylinder. If you do you'll get whiteish smoke from the exhaust when you accelerate. If you don't then your rings are probably fine. Now, when you pull the spark plug lead off, do you have oil in the spark plug hole in the head: ie, oil around the outside of the sparkplug? If so then what's actually gone bad is the rubber seal that lives on top of the head and under the cam cover. I've had people very concerned that their engine internals were bad when in actual fact all that had happened was they had a leaky spark plug hole seal, it filled up with oil and when they pulled the plug the accumulated oil dripped down over the electrode making them think their rings were bad.

As for the rust, there's an absolute mountain of bodywork stuff on this site, you may just find you can do half the work yourself and get a professional to finish the rest.

The 12v 3.0 swap is way easier than the 24 valve but if you aren't comfortable with that kind of work farming it out will cost a chunk. I think you'll find it easiest and cheapest to fix the 2.5, the work you've described isn't monumental and if you can't do it yourself, won't cost you an arm and a leg. Just an arm. I kid, I kid.

Seriously, try it yourself first. There's a ton of people here who'll help if you get stuck, you'll save a bunch of cash, learn lots about your car and have something you can be justifiably proud of when you're done. And if you screw the whole thing up and don't think you can get it right you can send it to your mechanic after all.

Hope this helps a little.

Cheers, Rick.
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A
So you got to pull the motor to change the Rear Seal I also thought that as well. The drive shaft repair would be much easier with the engine out anyway & taken it out is not that hard compare to trying to change a rear seal w/ out removing the motor. Looked at my book, I'd take it out PERIOD! The 2.5 is a great motor. You get get enough HP out her to satisfy 90% of Alfa people? S my 85 does 140 MPH. These days you'd get arrested for that, and she's a 2.5. I put a lot of crap in her to do that, but not expensive. I've owned her for 20 years. It's so fast my wife don't let me drive it anymore, it's her Alfa. No problem got 6 others.
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F
Just finished putting a 3.0 12 valver from a 164 im my GtV last week, pretty straight forward job to do and i am really happy with the power increase. I was just starting to feel the 2.5 a little slow.... look on the Alfagtv6.com website and you will find tonnes of useful info

Tom
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T
Probably the best thing to do would be to pull the engine and either replace all the seals, the timing belt, etc, or replace it with a verde 3.0. There have been discussions about this before and people have differeing opintions, but living in california, it is my opinion that keeping the engine appearing stock is a wise idea, becasue if you make obvious modifications, you will have the hassle of either putting it back to stock, or obtaininig an illegal smog certificate, and rick possibily being fined and having your car impounded if a police officer looks under the hood. If you are on a budget, a 3.0 swap is about the most power you are going to be able to get easily, more than that it gets pretty expensive.
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as-of-now
Hey everyone, thanks for the advice, everyone. I'm thinking along the lines of much that was said here. Also, everyone's words on the amount of work, time, and money involved, are persuading me to just do the 3.0 conversion. I don't know how hard a milano verde engine would be to get a hold of these days, but I presume it would be more cost effective to track one down, than to convert the 164 12v engine. If I'm mistaken, let me know. I don't know if anyone knows the answer, but is the only difference between the milano verde and the 164 12v, the intake? If so, couldn't one just easily put a 164 intake on the milano verde engine, and gain some good old HP?
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O
Hi A.O.N. First, let me tell you that dropping a 3.0 12V into your GTV6 will make you smile lots and it IS probably the best bang for the buck option out there.

That's the good bit. Now the less good bits. First, finding a 3.0 out of a Milano Verde might be tough. There weren't that many sold (compared to 2.5's) and the majority of Verde's left are loved and looked after so finding a crap one or a crashed one as an engine donor could be a challenge. It is, without a doubt, the easiest way to go because it'll bolt straight in and if you get it with the ECU, AFM, harness, flywheel etc. it's just plug and play.

Option #2 is not as easy as a Verde engine but there are benefits. 3.0 12V's out of 164's are far more common and can be had quite cheaply. You have a couple of options once you get one: Covert it to run the L Jet fuel injection that the GTV6 runs using the plenum, runners, etc. or get the harness, ECU, injectors, plenum etc. from the 164 and run it as a Motronic car which is what the 164's were (there are some real advantages to this with regards to HP and torque). There are many differences between the 164 3.0 and the Verde engine (not just the intake) but making the engine work in a GTV6 isn't that hard.

The single biggest deal for you is where you are and that's California. I don't think I'll go into any more detail about engine swaps until someone from your area chimes in with the details and hassles of this kind of thing in your state. We all know that CA smog laws are hard core but I don't know enough about them to say whether or not what you want to do is viable. Time for some West Coast help.

Cheers, Rick.
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as-of-now
Ozalfaracer said:
Hi A.O.N. First, let me tell you that dropping a 3.0 12V into your GTV6 will make you smile lots and it IS probably the best bang for the buck option out there.

That's the good bit. Now the less good bits. First, finding a 3.0 out of a Milano Verde might be tough. There weren't that many sold (compared to 2.5's) and the majority of Verde's left are loved and looked after so finding a crap one or a crashed one as an engine donor could be a challenge. It is, without a doubt, the easiest way to go because it'll bolt straight in and if you get it with the ECU, AFM, harness, flywheel etc. it's just plug and play.

Option #2 is not as easy as a Verde engine but there are benefits. 3.0 12V's out of 164's are far more common and can be had quite cheaply. You have a couple of options once you get one: Covert it to run the L Jet fuel injection that the GTV6 runs using the plenum, runners, etc. or get the harness, ECU, injectors, plenum etc. from the 164 and run it as a Motronic car which is what the 164's were (there are some real advantages to this with regards to HP and torque). There are many differences between the 164 3.0 and the Verde engine (not just the intake) but making the engine work in a GTV6 isn't that hard.

The single biggest deal for you is where you are and that's California. I don't think I'll go into any more detail about engine swaps until someone from your area chimes in with the details and hassles of this kind of thing in your state. We all know that CA smog laws are hard core but I don't know enough about them to say whether or not what you want to do is viable. Time for some West Coast help.

Cheers, Rick.
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Wow, thanks for the insightful responses (both of them). I love the idea of doing the work myself. I have a father with hands of gold (and all the tools), and myself, an eager learner. If I could muster up the time, which really is a matter of priority (and I'd be willing to put in the time) - I have no idea where I'd complete such a project.

I am getting the impression that the 12v 164 is the easiest to get, and I should upgrade everything to motronic if I'm already going through the hassle.

As far as I know, there isn't really anyone out there that would be able to tell the engine there is from a 164 and not an original 2.5. I mean, they're both v6's, and the "alfa romeo" on the 164 makes it look all that more authentic.

I remember seeing a post from cchan whom I've never met, but actually lives a minute from me, (I dont want to misquote, but it was something along the lines of): no one here can tell, (it passes the visual inspection for smog because there's no forced induction or anything), and anyone who could tell that a 164 engine was really in there would probably appreciate the build and let it slide....we'll see...
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dcalfa
Wouldn't the newer 164 engine and motronic have better smog numbers than the original 2.5 w/L-Jet anyway? Would they fine you for polluting too LITTLE?
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as-of-now
actually...It would make sense...
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T
If you swapped everything from the 164 it might be ok, I think there may be issues with fwd vs rwd getting it so everything is legal.
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Alfaguy35
Motor Swap

I recently was involved in getting a Chevy El Camino smogged that had a later model TPI motor installed. To get the car though the Referee which is the hard part you'll need the year and VIN from the car the donor motor came from. The next thing is that all smog equiptment that was on the donor car will need to be installed and working when the motor swap is done. If you have all that and it passes their inspection then you just take the car to a regular smog test to get the car actually tested.
Having said all that I have a 3.0 Verde motor that I'm willing to sell. Contact me offline if you are interested.
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Grant
I MAY be persuaded to part with my Verde engine. Has about 125K on the clock. Wouldn't be super cheap, but the engine only needs cam seals. Doesn't smoke or burn oil. It's still in the car. I'm wondering how much a 24V would cost...
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7
Get the high mileage LS on craigslist. It won't pass smog, so the owner is extremely motivated. It's cheaper than what most other places will sell just an engine for! Take the gearbox for your white LS and use the engine for your Verde. The A/C console is also fixed (that alone is worth $300-$400, used).
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as-of-now
Alfaguy35 said:
I recently was involved in getting a Chevy El Camino smogged that had a later model TPI motor installed. To get the car though the Referee which is the hard part you'll need the year and VIN from the car the donor motor came from. The next thing is that all smog equiptment that was on the donor car will need to be installed and working when the motor swap is done. If you have all that and it passes their inspection then you just take the car to a regular smog test to get the car actually tested.
Having said all that I have a 3.0 Verde motor that I'm willing to sell. Contact me offline if you are interested.
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Ok, Maybe I'm missing something, but why does anyone need to tell the"Referee" anything? Do they actually check the vin numbers' on both the car and motor to see that they match?
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Alfaguy35
Referee

You only see the referee if you put the 164 motor in and run it as a motronic motor. If you do that they need to know exactly what car the motor came from so that they can look up what smog equiptment should be on the motor.
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