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Hello, I have bougt a Lancia Flaminia Zagato series 1. I dont know much about this car and would like to find out more. Is the a register for this cars with chassis numbers and history? Is ther a Lancia Flaminia Zagato specialist or club. Regards Michael
 

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Michael,
There are a number of clubs and specialists, and a number of forums that are much better than this one. But much depends on where you're located, so it would be helpful to know that.
 

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Welcome - And we would love to see a picture of your beautiful car.

Did some documentation come with it? Pending on where the car came from, the local Lancia Club might also have some knowledge on the particualr car.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Flamminia Zagato

Here a picture of the car. Maybe someone knows it and has some information for me. The car was registered last in Belgium. Regards Michael
 

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Beautiful - Congratulations. What is the location? Essen?

We stickler notice the later style door handles (And door locking mechanism). A neat deviation that is worth exploring.

Mike
 

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We stickler notice the later style door handles (And door locking mechanism). A neat deviation that is worth exploring.
Mike, I don't think either Lancia or Zagato were particularly catholic (small "c" intended) about putting the cars together. The later style door handles could have been put on at the time it was built. But, as the differences between series 1 and series 2 cars weren't that great some people had their series 2 car's uncovered headlights remade to have series 1 headlight covers. So, the car could be a series 2 car with a series 1 style headlight conversion. Or it could be a series 1 car with series 2 doors/hardware.

I note, too, that the car is RHD (didn't know there were any). If it spent time at Harry Manning's UK shop in the 60's and 70's any number of things might have been done as an expedient to keeping what was then just an old car on the road. My '62 series 2 car has, for instance, a recliner driver's seat from a Supersport!
 

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M.P.72, that's a gorgeous car!

Jim, there were only a couple (literally) of RHD S3 Supersports, and I'm not sure there were any RHD S2s, but I believe there were a number of RHD S1 Sports made.
 

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The fact is every Zagato was different, a one-off car pratically, in the details and in the colours. There weren't 2 red cars painted with the same tone of red, this is what Andrea Zagato told me last year.
So, we can realize the series just from the engine.
 

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The fact is every Zagato was different, a one-off car pratically, in the details and in the colours. There weren't 2 red cars painted with the same tone of red, this is what Andrea Zagato told me last year.
So, we can realize the series just from the engine.
Very true, even with the relatively high numbers built - High by Zagato standards.

My series 2 had all these very weird features that looked factory fitted (With matching colors/ patina of the rest of the car) and the second owner, who knew the car all its life confirmed those.

They are stunningly beautiful.

Mike
 

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The fact is every Zagato was different, a one-off car pratically, in the details and in the colours. There weren't 2 red cars painted with the same tone of red, this is what Andrea Zagato told me last year...
That reinforces everything I've believed about Zagato's quality control.
 

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The fact is every Zagato was different, a one-off car pratically, in the details and in the colours. There weren't 2 red cars painted with the same tone of red, this is what Andrea Zagato told me last year.
So, we can realize the series just from the engine.
I would not call that a fact but hearsay -- as Andrea Zagato isn't the most reliable source on the subject matter. (Was he even born when these cars were built?) That, however, should not take away from the main argument: Pretty much all Zagato cars of that time were built in shoddy quality, with little consistency and a certain "randomness" that can be reminiscent of "one-off" cars.

But there is some clustering based on a handful of cars being built at the same time (essentially in batches) that have similar appearance and features. These clusters are evidenced by the Zagato job numbers on the cars that correspond to a consignment date to the manufacturer. The similarities of clustering can be observed on unrestored and/or unmolested cars (which become harder to find as time goes on) with closely matching job numbers. I received two spreadsheets a while ago with 2600 SZ production data that must have come from the Zagato factory (because nobody else could have known these numbers). So far, I have been unable to locate the source of this data (referred to as "Da libretto 1965" and "Da file PC 1994"). I would expect that such information exists or existed for Lancias as well.

The pictures below give some insight into early 2600 SZ production, probably dating from about May-July 1965 (and featuring a transitional 2600 SZ protoype). I think it's not unreasonable to assume Flaminia Zagatos were built the same way. And, to come back to Andrea's statement, I'm pretty sure more than one car had the same paint.
 

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Sorry tubut, but Andrea Zagato is the last survivor of his family and he does the same job of his father. My father was employed in the Fiat group for 35 years and i can tell you many stories about the production from a primary source, even i'm doing a different job. Andrea and me are of the same age so i assume , if he isn't a stupid and i can tell you he isn't, he remembers the stories like me.
Anyway, i remember his father Elio, during a conference in the '90s at the National car museum of Turin, told the Flaminia sport production was a mess. Lancia delivered just some chassis a time, but when Zagato asked more chassis they took off some from the other lots. In the first years the customers were private drivers and private clients. The drivers wanted to drive the lighter car of the racetracks, the clients wanted to drive the best Lancia on the roads. We aren't talking about a standard production like the Alfa 2600 SSZ or the Flaminia 2800 SSZ (both built in series, indeed), the sports were handmade cars built one by one. The race cars had a single coat of paint, the others not. The race cars didn't have the protection coat under the body, the others had it. Some private clients visiting the factory asked to paint the car in a special colour and showed a foulard or a tie as samples. Every time the painter made a mixture for the paint-tank (5Kg) and a sample before to spray.
Somebody wanted the door handles with the button, somebody else not. Somebody wanted the covered headlights still in 1962; somebody wanted the black knobs, somebody else wanted them in white, etc. etc. . In any case Zagato had also the commissions from the foreign Lancia dealers to satisfy, right hand drive, the overriders on the bumpers, different lights, tachometers in mph, etc. And last, but not least 33 sport bodies were in excess. They were fitted with a 2800cc engine later.
As you see the sports were different.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks a lot for the informations and discussion. I would sign the last post from PG1964 (Im too 1964). Thats how it was and I know from my other Zagatos and the people I know. I ad another picture of the car.
 

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Again, gorgeous car - red over red
 

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Sorry tubut, but Andrea Zagato is the last survivor of his family and he does the same job of his father. My father was employed in the Fiat group for 35 years and i can tell you many stories about the production from a primary source, even i'm doing a different job. ..... In the first years the customers were private drivers and private clients. The drivers wanted to drive the lighter car of the racetracks, the clients wanted to drive the best Lancia on the roads. We aren't talking about a standard production like the Alfa 2600 SSZ or the Flaminia 2800 SSZ (both built in steel, indeed), the sports were handmade cars built one by one. The race cars had a single coat of paint, the others not. The race cars didn't have the protection coat under the body, the others had it. Some private clients visiting the factory asked to paint the car in a special colour and showed a foulard or a tie as samples. Every time the painter made a mixture for the paint-tank (5Kg) and a sample before to spray.
Somebody wanted the door handles with the button, somebody else not. Somebody wanted the covered headlights still in 1962; somebody wanted the black knobs, somebody else wanted them in white, etc. etc. . In any case Zagato had also the commissions from the foreign Lancia dealers to satisfy, right hand drive, the overriders on the bumpers, different lights, tachometers in mph, etc. And last, but not least 33 sport bodies were in excess. They were fitted with a 2800cc engine later.
As you see the sports were different.
Paolo -

A very thoughtful post. But a clarification please: what do you mean by Lancia 2800 SSZ in steel? Are you referring to a Super Sport Zagato, or something else?

FWIW, my mother picked up a Super Sport at the factory in 1965, and the quality, while not like the sedan or coupe, was still pretty special. There was a difference between customization, production regularity, and quality. They aren't all the same - and the Zagatos were struggling certainly with each of these. Production regularity being the more obvious of the issues.

Years later, now that we have taken them all apart, and examining their fabrication techniques - they seem like a lot of smoke and mirrors, but they sure had a great presence back then. Being positioned between sports and racing on one hand, and custom small scale "bespoke" construction on the other, their middle ground was pretty good. Maybe with hindsight we see them differently now, hard to know.

Thanks,
Geoff
 
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