I have recently bought in USA a Lancia Aprilia Barchetta that was brought there from Italy by a military in the early sixty . It is unknown the body maker but it is very well made . the chassis is a Fiat vin1100 269345 (year 1940) and Lancia Aprilia engine and gearbox type 97 n° 11111 ( year 1939) . The car is totally original and unrestored in pretty good conditions. Does any know the carrozziere that makes it ,does any know the car and the history? Ciao
Lancia Aprilia Barchetta
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If you need to know more about this car, write me please: [email protected]
We'll be more comfortable to speak in Italian and share photos.
We'll be more comfortable to speak in Italian and share photos.
There are news about my Lancia Aprilia barchetta: I found, on the frame, on the side opposite to that on which is printed the number of fiat which I have already shown, another number with a strange symbol probably is the number that was stamped by the bodymaker. No one has ever seen a theme like this on other chassies (i think it could be made by pininfarina but I don't sure). I found also the color of the car that is red; and a number painted in yellow on the motor that is type 97 1350cc, 6V, but the measurement of ignition cylinder is 1500 cc like the next type( the numbers on the pistons and connecting rods are also stamped on the cylinder block,it is been, probably, made by Lancia).
Nobody is able to give me information about these discoveries??? thanks mariosca.
Nobody is able to give me information about these discoveries??? thanks mariosca.
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There are news about my Lancia Aprilia barchetta: I found, on the frame, on the side opposite to that on which is printed the number of fiat which I have already shown, another number with a strange symbol probably is the number that was stamped by the bodymaker. No one has ever seen a theme like this on other chassies (i think it could be made by pininfarina but I don't sure). I found also the color of the car that is red; and a number painted in yellow on the motor that is type 97 1350cc, 6V, but the measurement of ignition cylinder is 1500 cc like the next type( the numbers on the pistons and connecting rods are also stamped on the cylinder block,it is been, probably, made by Lancia).
Nobody is able to give me information about these discoveries??? thanks mariosca.
Nobody is able to give me information about these discoveries??? thanks mariosca.
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The "89780" number is a "numero d'ufficio" assigned to the chassis, probably when some inspector was no longer willing to register the car under its previous "Fiat" identity ... due to the many changes that were made. I am guessing that the "RG" letter over-stamp (or is it "RO"?) indicates that the number was assigned in Ragusa. There is no guarantee that the work was done in or near Ragusa as it may be that the assigned number came only after the car was relocated to the general area. More checking to be done! Only getting started ... but there is a good chance that it spent a bit of time in or near Ragusa. If so, it might have been registered there?
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Unfortunately, the first and the last letter don't correspond to an Italian province. Probably they belong to the workshop who made the stamping. Usually the Circolo ferroviario d'ispezione adopted a symbol (a star, a triangle, etc.) as first and last. I checked in Ragusa, the other chassis stamped there in that period are completely different.
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numeri d'ufficio
Not every "numero d'ufficio" number stamping is the same in any province that I've seen. There are many possibilities. It only seemed to me (in this case) as if the characters following the chassis number might be "RG" over-stamped one letter on top of the other. The characters preceding the number might be "RO' ... perhaps Rovigo? In the end, the basic number might have been stamped anywhere and was perhaps only verified in another province once the ownership changed, maybe not for the first time?
There can be problems with believing too strongly in the systems set up by bureaucracies when not everyone believes that the systems are even necessary. Systems were not always followed in the moment, particularly when an important or well-known person/dealer/client was making a request to get their car registered for the road. A harried clerk might make any number of exceptions to a "rule", particularly in times of imminent or recent war. Sometimes an engine number became the basis for a numero d'ufficio. There are a number of alternate possibilities. We are searching for a possible research path. If Rovigo records do not seem to provide an answer, then we must look elsewhere.
I have collected dozens of examples of instances where rules were seemingly "broken" and these are only problems (in the long run) when we are unaccepting of the clear fact that we are dealing with humans who were not entirely consistent from day to day. Heck, it happens even today that numbering is not as consistent as we would like to believe computers "should be". Sometimes, there is a mistake in the chain of communications ... most often human? Errors happen, despite spell-check. Might have made a few heeere?
Not every "numero d'ufficio" number stamping is the same in any province that I've seen. There are many possibilities. It only seemed to me (in this case) as if the characters following the chassis number might be "RG" over-stamped one letter on top of the other. The characters preceding the number might be "RO' ... perhaps Rovigo? In the end, the basic number might have been stamped anywhere and was perhaps only verified in another province once the ownership changed, maybe not for the first time?
There can be problems with believing too strongly in the systems set up by bureaucracies when not everyone believes that the systems are even necessary. Systems were not always followed in the moment, particularly when an important or well-known person/dealer/client was making a request to get their car registered for the road. A harried clerk might make any number of exceptions to a "rule", particularly in times of imminent or recent war. Sometimes an engine number became the basis for a numero d'ufficio. There are a number of alternate possibilities. We are searching for a possible research path. If Rovigo records do not seem to provide an answer, then we must look elsewhere.
I have collected dozens of examples of instances where rules were seemingly "broken" and these are only problems (in the long run) when we are unaccepting of the clear fact that we are dealing with humans who were not entirely consistent from day to day. Heck, it happens even today that numbering is not as consistent as we would like to believe computers "should be". Sometimes, there is a mistake in the chain of communications ... most often human? Errors happen, despite spell-check. Might have made a few heeere?
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I know, but I never saw a "numero d'ufficio" stamped with a province prefix....
So, IF this number is the result of a mistake I can agree with you: things happen. This is an unclear area to be discovered yet.
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Because the engine and not the chassis, You have to consider the Sport National Championship rules of the period, remember that this isn't a series car.
It's possible that it was Fiat powered before. The 1100 was the only available engine for the competitions, outclassed by the Cisitalia, the Stanguellini and the Abarth 1100cc engines since 1947.
Instead the 1500cc Lancia was most powerful and the most reliable from 1945 to 1950.
If you wanted to win the National championship you just had to have one.
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numero d'Ufficio
I have seen quite a number of cars that carry a "numero d'ufficio" on the chassis and/or engine. I have documentation for many more. Some numbers were issued and stamped with special characters indicating the general locale in which the number was issued. Some numbering patterns differ quite greatly from others. I'll not attempt to illustrate all the variations I've seen but here are some bits of "proof" and illustrations of what you might see. Such markings have been identified from Ancona, Bologna, Brescia, Catania, Genova, Livorno, Milano, Torino and more. I am illustrating only Milano and Torino in the attached images, with a document extract that shows the bureaucratic description of a "Fiat-Lancia" that was a pretty berlinetta that raced 1951.
John
I have seen quite a number of cars that carry a "numero d'ufficio" on the chassis and/or engine. I have documentation for many more. Some numbers were issued and stamped with special characters indicating the general locale in which the number was issued. Some numbering patterns differ quite greatly from others. I'll not attempt to illustrate all the variations I've seen but here are some bits of "proof" and illustrations of what you might see. Such markings have been identified from Ancona, Bologna, Brescia, Catania, Genova, Livorno, Milano, Torino and more. I am illustrating only Milano and Torino in the attached images, with a document extract that shows the bureaucratic description of a "Fiat-Lancia" that was a pretty berlinetta that raced 1951.
John
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Finally I have discovered who bodied my barchetta the name is Mario Faina from Roma , he used to work for Bandini and made some other racing car . I hope, soon ,to be able to discovered the original plate (targa). If you have some more information about the "carrozziere" are welcome.
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Perhaps Grosseto?
Looking at the "ufficio" number stamping again, the possibility of Grosseto comes to mind for the location where the Numero d'ufficio might have been issued or verified early on?
I agree that Faina is a possibility for the body. Faina did quite a number of interesting "sport" bodies. Are you working with some actual proof (or strong clue?) that the body was made by Faina?
I am not aware that Faina worked with Ilario Bandini. It seems rather unlikely on the face of it. If you are working with someone's distant memory as a source, it is always possible that Faina worked on a Bandini for a customer?
Some new data for you that may apply? Engine 11111 (almost certainly Tipo 97?) was declared 1947 as having been taken during World War II by the German occupying forces. The engine was in Aprilia chassis number 38-8708 and was very likely original to that chassis. The declaration of loss was made by Antonio Sandri Poli of Spoleto, near Perugia. There is a Perugia license plate number we can research, but that will probably tell us only of the early ownership history of the Lancia.
Little by little we can hope to learn more!
All my best,
John
Looking at the "ufficio" number stamping again, the possibility of Grosseto comes to mind for the location where the Numero d'ufficio might have been issued or verified early on?
I agree that Faina is a possibility for the body. Faina did quite a number of interesting "sport" bodies. Are you working with some actual proof (or strong clue?) that the body was made by Faina?
I am not aware that Faina worked with Ilario Bandini. It seems rather unlikely on the face of it. If you are working with someone's distant memory as a source, it is always possible that Faina worked on a Bandini for a customer?
Some new data for you that may apply? Engine 11111 (almost certainly Tipo 97?) was declared 1947 as having been taken during World War II by the German occupying forces. The engine was in Aprilia chassis number 38-8708 and was very likely original to that chassis. The declaration of loss was made by Antonio Sandri Poli of Spoleto, near Perugia. There is a Perugia license plate number we can research, but that will probably tell us only of the early ownership history of the Lancia.
Little by little we can hope to learn more!
All my best,
John
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you just gotta love the Patriarca "sigaro", on the left in that last photo!!
its parked and it looks like he's flat out on the Targa, overtaking a tourist bus...what a brilliant era for small car manufacturers
its parked and it looks like he's flat out on the Targa, overtaking a tourist bus...what a brilliant era for small car manufacturers
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Hi...looking at these posts and when they've been made, I think I can say the answer to this mistery came from my Facebook page, Archivio Vetture Sport, where I managed to get in contact with some relatives of Faina's family and finally match this stunning car with his coachbuilder (presumibly). The B&W pictrue comes from Faina's family and according to his nephew, the number on it was handwritten by Mario. There was another interesting element of this puzzle: during the restoration (done by Faralli restauri) they found an inscriprion in the back of the dashboard reading "Bernadini". That was a dead end after all, but the hunt is still on.
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