[Biscione]

Who is going this Sunday?

 

[Azzurri GTV]

I stopped attending concours events when i noticed the judges mysteriously kept winning first places every year.

 

[sidewaysalfa]

Solution, become a judge!!!!

However, even with all that power my POC cars never scored very well.

 

[onethumb]

Do I have to register ahead of time? I'd love to show off the new interior of the Alfetta, but I don't know if I can make it or not, and probably won't know until tomorrow.

 

[Bruce Colby]

Here are some details I got from the an entry form:

The Craig Park gates open at 7 AM.
There is a $4 parking fee charged by the Park.
The Concours will be in the lower parking lot.
Entries are accepted up to 9:30 AM.
The car entry/judging fee is $10, you can look for free.
The judging starts at 10 AM.

To get to Craig Park, take the Orange Freeway (57) to the Imperial Hwy offramp, then go west for about 1/4 mile to College Blvd. Turn left on College, go about 300 yds and turn left again. The directions I have say to "look carefully for the entrance" so I guess it's a little hard to see.

The classes are:

Open Alfa
Closed Alfa
Daily Driver (Alfa I think)
Race Prepared (Alfa I think)
Best Italian
Other cars (non-Alfas?)

Sorry, I'm not much of a Concours guy.

Let's see, what else ...

Apparently there are some shade trees but you are advised to bring sunscreen and bug repellent. Also, because this is a County Park, alcohol, skateboards, scooters, etc are not permitted.

I hope this helps.

 

[sidewaysalfa]

I'll be there with the 76 Alfetta.
If I keep in the belts and slap the numbers on the door I could enter it as a Competition car and start to compete for end of year points with Norman.
Hmmmmmm......

Late entry is OK. Just get there plenty early so you can do a little paperwork. Remember to be real nice to Doug Adler, Concours Chair. He does way too much work for only the glory and a little applause.
Nothing is worse for an event chair than to have someone show up late and still want to enter.

And remember to bring a picnic lunch.

 

[onethumb]

Excellent--thanks guys!!

 

[90Quad]

Paul, you haven't signed your corrupt judge conspiracy member forms and completed the 10 min. Enron unethical training video course. That is why you haven't won with your cars. Remember, a concourse has nothing to do with a car being as close as possible to the way the factory originally made it in terms of accurate parts and cleanliness. In fact, we are considering adding a new bling bling category, in which case I'll chrome my seats and put onethumb's to shame.

Corrupt judge 8675309

 

[sidewaysalfa]

Paul, you haven't signed your corrupt judge conspiracy member forms and completed the 10 min. Enron unethical training video course.

Ha, completed all the paperwork in time for this morning's concourse.
Since I was the only car in Competition Prepared - FIRST PLACE.

 

[sidewaysalfa]

Concourse pt 2.

Seriously - the club could use some more informed and educated judges.
I got pulled in to use my way toooo little knowledge to judge today because we were short of judges.
We looked at 16 cars and had 5 judges, me included. Took over 2 hours to complete.
So folks out there in So Cal PLEASE those of you who have enough knowledge to judge a 164 Quad, Nicki Lauda Spider, GTV6 and an increadible 2600 . . . . . . That's what I tried to do this morning.

 

[Biscione]

best in show..........

 

[Azzurri GTV]

Solution, become a judge!!!!

Sorry i would like to win a car show the old fashioned way without cheating.

 

[Azzurri GTV]

Paul, you haven't signed your corrupt judge conspiracy member forms and completed the 10 min. Enron unethical training video course. That is why you haven't won with your cars. Remember, a concourse has nothing to do with a car being as close as possible to the way the factory originally made it in terms of accurate parts and cleanliness. In fact, we are considering adding a new bling bling category, in which case I'll chrome my seats and put onethumb's to shame.

Corrupt judge 8675309

Is that a fact? well i believe it was last year (not sure) when a gentlemen with a TOTALLY ORIGINAL 67 sprint veloce in almost flawless condition imported straight from Rome, Italy except for a few tears on the interior went home with nothing!! I had a conversation with him and we arrived at the same conclusion. All the judges know each other and they judge each others cars and surprise surprise they end up winning. I find it pretty funny though when you ask a judge what they are EXACTLY looking for and how to improve your score you never really get a straight answer.
And you guys wonder why you have so little cars attending your shows.
I'm done with this BS and i'm moving to the east coast where the judging is fair. Sorry for coming off strong just venting the truth.

 

[dretceterini]

As with any club, it's the people that become the most involved and do the work that make the decisions.

I think what is ultimately done in any case is in part a backlash at the refusal for others to actually get involved in the process. Like with anything else, it's much easier just to follow than to try and lead. Followers will always suffer the consiquences of their inactions.

Paul has already admitted that he is far from an expert when it comes to the ins and outs of cars as rare and obscure as 2600s. Unfortunately, it is often only the owner of a particular model that knows and/or cares enough to make it correct, and this can be a long and expensive process.

The Alfa community is so small that those who actually know the older cars are few and far between, and that's why clean and shiny cars that are incorrect and have been modified often recieve awards above cars that are a little scruffy but substantially more period correct.

I believe the problem is more a lack of knowledge than any real bias. In 1992 I was vice-president of the club, and had been on the board of directors for over 10 years. I entered my 2600 coupe, which was scruffy but TOTALLY correct, except for the fact that a previous owner had replaced the gas door with an outside racing type filler. I had the lowest score in the concours, in spite of the fact that my car was substantially more correct than many others.

 

[90Quad]

Ok, since people seem to be developing theories that I do not think are accurate, I’ll address these concerns seriously in the hopes that everyone might have a better understanding of the concourse judging. Let me state up front that I judge sometimes and have entered my car.

Keep in mind these aren’t formal and intensely serious events like Pebble Beach. They are supposed to be fun events so everyone can enjoy each other’s cars, have some motivation to clean them up and participate in a friendly competition. In my mind that is also the order of priority.

The formula for judging really isn’t a secret. The concourse chairman, Doug, publishes how to prepare your car in the newsletter at the beginning of the season and included his phone number in the May newsletter for anyone with questions. National I believe establishes the categories and points awarded. If you are interested in finding out exactly how cars are scored, you can ask Doug for a copy of the scoring sheet. I would think most judges would be happy to answer any questions after the judging is completed (sometimes they have a lot of cars to review during inspections so they might not be as communicative then).

I’m not familiar with the car you are referencing or why it placed the way it did, so I’ll give you a scenario that might help you better understand the scoring. Lets say there are 2 scoring divisions for judging the engine compartment – 10pts for cleanliness and 10pts for originality. Now, for our example lets say there are two cars—one engine is totally original but the owner has made no attempt to clean it and it is very dirty. The second one has been fully detailed but has 5 glaring modifications including painting some items pink. The first car might get 10 pts for originality and 0 for cleanliness for a total of 10. The second might get 5 pts deducted for the modifications in the originality category and get 10 pts for cleanliness for a total of 15 pts. Now it might seem odd to some that the engine with the modifications and pink parts wins, but when you look at the breakdown it makes sense. Also, judges work in groups of 2 to counter any individual biases. The way the score categories work also makes it difficult to figure out who will have a higher score until the judges total them at the end.

As far as the judges themselves, I can only give you my opinion based on my experiences. Rather than jumping to conclusions, I would recommend that you form your own opinion about their character and integrity by participating in events, not necessarily concourse, and getting to know them better. My opinion is that they volunteer because they enjoy the cars and the other people who share their passion. I do not believe they play favorites and it would never even cross their minds to begrudge someone for not volunteering to participate or also be a judge. In looking at the events so far this year, and the ones in recent memory, I don’t see evidence of a favoritism theory. The judges do the best they can and I think they are quite accurate in awarding the cars in the correct order.

 

[Norman Silverma]

1 - Doug has added a column to the judging form for comments and has a detailed discussion with the judges to try to achieve uniformity in approach. These forms are available for review.
2 - The judges frequently question the exhibitor about questions of originality, etc.
3 - Usually the first car judged is the basis for the amount of deductions given for various points of review and there may be a variance between teams of judges. Doug tries to assign one team to each class. This way he tries to avoid having two or more (subjective) sets of parameters in a class.
If you want to talk the talk, come out, volunteer, and walk the walk. Then tell us how you think we can do it better. AROSC is your CLUB, The BoD has an open meeting the first Wed. of every month.

 

[dretceterini]

Lets say there are 2 scoring divisions for judging the engine compartment – 10pts for cleanliness and 10pts for originality. Now, for our example lets say there are two cars—one engine is totally original but the owner has made no attempt to clean it and it is very dirty. The second one has been fully detailed but has 5 glaring modifications including painting some items pink. The first car might get 10 pts for originality and 0 for cleanliness for a total of 10. The second might get 5 pts deducted for the modifications in the originality category and get 10 pts for cleanliness for a total of 15 pts. Now it might seem odd to some that the engine with the modifications and pink parts wins, but when you look at the breakdown it makes sense. Also, judges work in groups of 2 to counter any individual biases. The way the score categories work also makes it difficult to figure out who will have a higher score until the judges total them at the end.

Just one man's opinion, but having as many possible points for cleanliness as for originality is absurd.